The Labour Thread

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Not saying the Lord's Prayer always seems like a small (if somewhat ridiculous) act of rebellion which I REVEL IN. No idea why it should seem remotely rebellious really because I never inhabit God's house WILLINGLY but I often have to resist the strange urge to MUMBLE my way through it.

So yeah, I'm all for eschewing convention and maintaining a Corbyn-esque silence, dignified or otherwise.

 

[Alty]

I thought Corbyn was quite clever with his approach to PMQs. Liked it. And tbf to Cameron, despite all the obviously planted questions from his own side, he didn't really engage in pathetic point scoring or ad hominem attacks.

The Dodds question and the reaction to it was quite telling, I think. McDonnell is going to be dogged by his previous IRA comments until he's replaced.

 

[Dave-Vale]

Not saying the Lord's Prayer always seems like a small (if somewhat ridiculous) act of rebellion which I REVEL IN. No idea why it should seem remotely rebellious really because I never inhabit God's house WILLINGLY but I often have to resist the strange urge to MUMBLE my way through it.

So yeah, I'm all for eschewing convention and maintaining a Corbyn-esque silence, dignified or otherwise.

Ignore me I mis-read your post buddy.

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools so they've tried their level best to try and indoctrinate me. Fortunately, I gave them the V-sign around 13 years of age when I realise how fucked up church is.

I now worship the sun. Why? Because I can actually SEE it.

*if you get the reference to a famous (dead) comedian you're a legend*

 

[smat]

Corbyn and Abbott

 

[mowgli]

Corbyn and Abbott

Read about that this morning, thank fuck i wasn't eating my breakfast

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Is there no proper Corbs news today? I'm sure he must have eaten some babies for breakfast or something

 

[merseyboyred]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34278338

Ed Miliband did not lose election because he was too left wing - study

Labour didn't lose the general election because it was seen as too left wing, according to new research.

Ed Miliband was unlikely to win in May no matter where he placed the party on the spectrum between left and right, say academics from the British Election Study.

Their analysis suggests voters were just as likely to back Labour whether it was seen as a party on the far left, or just to the left of centre.

But they warn the economic crash of 2008 appears to have fundamentally changed voters' views on whether Labour can be trusted on the economy.

In research to be published by the IPPR think tank, Jane Green and Chris Prosser write: "Labour needs to give working class, left of centre voters a reason to vote for the party again and the party needs to win support at the centre. It should resist choosing one over the other."

At this year's general election many voters still blamed Ed Miliband's party if they thought the economy was not improving.

Green told the World at One: "Labour wasn't able to shift that blame so if people saw the economy doing better they gave the Conservatives some credit.

"If they thought the economy was still doing worse they gave some blame to the Tories but they also gave blame to Labour, so Labour got some of the blame and none of the credit."

The problem for Labour worsened in the run up to May's election, with Conservatives being seen as increasingly economically competent even before the economy itself improved.

During the campaign every leader but the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon proved unpopular, but David Cameron was less disliked than Miliband

Perversely, when Labour gained votes from former Lib Dems they helped the Tories win seats.

In total Labour votes won from Lib Dems alone secured seven seats for the Tories.

The British Election Study interviewed 20,000 voters in March and immediately after the general election.

 

[Pliny Harris]

Any amount of time spent doorstepping for Labour this spring woulda told you that!

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

The supporters you know don't know their arse from their elbow, in that case. Anyone on the radical left cannot possibly support the EU in its current guise.

Yeah, but I think most on the radical left are smart enough to see that leaving the EU on terms dictated by the Tory right or UKIP would be even worse. I think unilaterally leaving the EU isn't going to make the EU better and isn't going to make the UK better. We need to dismantle both of them.

Neither Brussels nor Westminster...

 

[Viv Aldi]

Yeah, but I think most on the radical left are smart enough to see that leaving the EU on terms dictated by the Tory right or UKIP would be even worse. I think unilaterally leaving the EU isn't going to make the EU better and isn't going to make the UK better. We need to dismantle both of them.

Neither Brussels nor Westminster...

Who cares about making 'the EU better'. The organisation shouldn't even exist in the form it does.

 

[HertsWolf]

Who cares about making 'the EU better'. The organisation shouldn't even exist in the form it does.

Those who believe that an economically stable continent is safer for all and that the wider synergies of a stable socio-economic system might also provide a better marketplace for products and services?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Because we can't have a free trade agreement and mutual defence pact without a bloated non-democratic political union? And the EU is hardly the bastion of socio-economic stability, just ask those countries that keep having to raise their retirement age because their young adults are migrating en masse elsewhere.

 

[HertsWolf]

Not saying the Lord's Prayer always seems like a small (if somewhat ridiculous) act of rebellion which I REVEL IN. No idea why it should seem remotely rebellious really because I never inhabit God's house WILLINGLY but I often have to resist the strange urge to MUMBLE my way through it.

So yeah, I'm all for eschewing convention and maintaining a Corbyn-esque silence, dignified or otherwise.

I find it curious that people with any spiritual belief would eschew the Lord's Prayer (but even more curiously, continue to capitalise the first letters of both words). Regardless of one's experiences or distaste for individual churches or denominations, the Lord's Prayer comes straight from an ancient text (so is non-denominational) and is largely about forgiveness, compassion and protecting us from evil and a little plea for sustenance. Or am I misunderstanding it all this time?

If a person's an atheist, then, of course, I can understand how odd any prayer must be.
But although a Christian prayer, surely the sentiments aren't out of alignment with the tenets of any religion or spiritual belief?

 

[HertsWolf]

Because we can't have a free trade agreement and mutual defence pact without a bloated non-democratic political union? And the EU is hardly the bastion of socio-economic stability, just ask those countries that keep having to raise their retirement age because their young adults are migrating en masse elsewhere.

It's more stable than in the 1920s and 1930s. Migration and retirement is a problem worldwide with CFOs and politicians from all four corners of our roughly spherical globe unable to keep their fingers of retirement provisions. It's not just an EU issue.

What makes anyone think that the vaguely democratic system of the UK (House of Lords and Cocaine Snorters notwithstanding) is going to produce any better results than the vaguely democratic system of the EU?

Politicians have always proved adept at getting their snouts in the trough, regardless of the nature of the democracy. Leaving the EU is no panacea.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

It's more stable than in the 1920s and 1930s. Migration and retirement is a problem worldwide with CFOs and politicians from all four corners of our roughly spherical globe unable to keep their fingers of retirement provisions. It's not just an EU issue.

No, but the EU does exacerbate the problem for many.

What makes anyone think that the vaguely democratic system of the UK (House of Lords and Cocaine Snorters notwithstanding) is going to produce any better results than the vaguely democratic system of the EU?

That's an absurd false equivalence though and you surely know that. The two are not even remotely similar in their respective democratic deficits.

Politicians have always proved adept at getting their snouts in the trough, regardless of the nature of the democracy. Leaving the EU is no panacea.

I don't believe that anyone is presenting it as a panacea, only a positive step.

 

[Alty]

Yeah, but I think most on the radical left are smart enough to see that leaving the EU on terms dictated by the Tory right or UKIP would be even worse. I think unilaterally leaving the EU isn't going to make the EU better and isn't going to make the UK better. We need to dismantle both of them.

Neither Brussels nor Westminster...

Leaving the EU makes us an independent country again. What follows is down to the British people. Is the British radical left in such a pitiful state that it'll vote to stay in the European Union out of hatred for the Tory right-wing?? Let's sell Tony Benn and Michael Foot down the river for David Cameron's preferred option? Fucking hell.

Dismantle the UK...what does that entail?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

There's also no reason to assume that the EU wouldn't take a turn to the right in the future either. Then what?

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Leaving the EU makes us an independent country again. What follows is down to the British people. Is the British radical left in such a pitiful state that it'll vote to stay in the European Union out of hatred for the Tory right-wing?? Let's sell Tony Benn and Michael Foot down the river for David Cameron's preferred option? Fucking hell.

Yeah, it is. If you haven't noticed, there's a far-right resurgence - both actual fash and fellow-travellers like UKIP and the Tory-right. Pretending that Britain leaving the EU would be anything other than a massive, epoch-defining victory for them is stupid as fuck.

They're not resurgent because of the EU - most UKIP voters and fash don't give a fuck about the EU. They're resurgent because they've been indulged, and to an extent because they scent blood. If large numbers of people vote to leave the EU, the benefit will be to UKIP (see the SNP and the IndyRef for how that can work).

I'm not going to go and campaign for the EU, but I've at least got the sense not to campaign to leave it on a left-platform because I think leaving it would be bad for everyone.

Dismantle the UK...what does that entail?

End or completely reform all/nearly all the institutions of state and possibly abolish the state itself in favour of a loose federation of much smaller states.

 

[Aber gas]

I'm not sure it matters on who's terms we leave the eu. There is european law that has been good for Britain but that can't compensate for the undemocratic nature of the organisation, a benign dictatorship is still a dictatorship.

 

[Aber gas]

Yeah, it is. If you haven't noticed, there's a far-right resurgence - both actual fash and fellow-travellers like UKIP and the Tory-right. Pretending that Britain leaving the EU would be anything other than a massive, epoch-defining victory for them is stupid as fuck.

They're not resurgent because of the EU - most UKIP voters and fash don't give a fuck about the EU. They're resurgent because they've been indulged, and to an extent because they scent blood. If large numbers of people vote to leave the EU, the benefit will be to UKIP (see the SNP and the IndyRef for how that can work).

I'm not going to go and campaign for the EU, but I've at least got the sense not to campaign to leave it on a left-platform because I think leaving it would be bad for everyone.



End or completely reform all/nearly all the institutions of state and possibly abolish the state itself in favour of a loose federation of much smaller states.

I can't argue for an undemocratic system like the eu just because the fash also don't want it .there is a leftist argument for leaving Europe .

 

[Alty]

There's also no reason to assume that the EU wouldn't take a turn to the right in the future either. Then what?

Juncker is a Christian Democrat and the Right + Centre-Right form a majority in the European Parliament. All they ever seem to talk about (when they're not making a complete mess of the migrant crisis) is the European Single Market or TTIP.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

I can't argue for an undemocratic system like the eu just because the fash also don't want it .there is a leftist argument for leaving Europe .

How are those powers going to be democratically reallocated if we leave Europe though?

For a start, Britain is only marginally more democratic than Europe; aside the from the unelected head-of-state and upper-chamber, capital basically runs the show as much in Westminster as in Brussels.

If voting to "take back powers" merely empowers people to further roll-back workers' rights, rights to organise, freedom of movement etc (and it will), we will be in a significantly worse position than we are now.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

I find it curious that people with any spiritual belief would eschew the Lord's Prayer (but even more curiously, continue to capitalise the first letters of both words). Regardless of one's experiences or distaste for individual churches or denominations, the Lord's Prayer comes straight from an ancient text (so is non-denominational) and is largely about forgiveness, compassion and protecting us from evil and a little plea for sustenance. Or am I misunderstanding it all this time?

If a person's an atheist, then, of course, I can understand how odd any prayer must be.
But although a Christian prayer, surely the sentiments aren't out of alignment with the tenets of any religion or spiritual belief?

I don't really object to the sentiment. It's just a ritual I'm not minded to partake in for I have no faith.

Leaving the EU makes us an independent country again. What follows is down to the British people. Is the British radical left in such a pitiful state that it'll vote to stay in the European Union out of hatred for the Tory right-wing?? Let's sell Tony Benn and Michael Foot down the river for David Cameron's preferred option? Fucking hell.

Dismantle the UK...what does that entail?

I don't see why Europe need be a left/right issue. I'm not sure who or what is meant to comprise the radical left these days, but I don't see why you shouldn't be able to identify as such just because you might be broadly pro-European in outlook. There are myriad reasons as to why someone might identify as a Europhile or a Eurosceptic. Wishing to honour the memory of Tony Benn and Michael Foot seems among the worst reasons one could give for adopting the latter position.

 

[Alty]

Yeah, it is. If you haven't noticed, there's a far-right resurgence - both actual fash and fellow-travellers like UKIP and the Tory-right. Pretending that Britain leaving the EU would be anything other than a massive, epoch-defining victory for them is stupid as fuck.

They're not resurgent because of the EU - most UKIP voters and fash don't give a fuck about the EU. They're resurgent because they've been indulged, and to an extent because they scent blood. If large numbers of people vote to leave the EU, the benefit will be to UKIP (see the SNP and the IndyRef for how that can work).

I'm not going to go and campaign for the EU, but I've at least got the sense not to campaign to leave it on a left-platform because I think leaving it would be bad for everyone.

End or completely reform all/nearly all the institutions of state and possibly abolish the state itself in favour of a loose federation of much smaller states.

I think you've got cause and effect muddled here.

The SNP didn't become popular because 45% of people voted for independence. There was a groundswell of opinion in support of their views years earlier because people were sick of the neo-liberal consensus. Just as people now are tired of a total lack of control over our borders and an unelected Commission of 27 people driving the direction of European civilisation.

These assertions about UKIP and the Tories being one and the same as fascists are absolutely pathetic. And I say that as a man who'd rather die than vote Conservative.

What does a loose confederation of much smaller states look like? All these areas that are about to get themselves a directly elected mayor becoming state(let)s? What is this actually based on? How will an independent Sheffield improve the lives of the people who live there?

 

[Aber gas]

How are those powers going to be democratically reallocated if we leave Europe though?

For a start, Britain is only marginally more democratic than Europe; aside the from the unelected head-of-state and upper-chamber, capital basically runs the show as much in Westminster as in Brussels.

If voting to "take back powers" merely empowers people to further roll-back workers' rights, rights to organise, freedom of movement etc (and it will), we will be in a significantly worse position than we are now.

that's up to us, we can't affect change in the uk if we have to rely on an inherently undemocratic body to back up our rights. I completely understand your argument but I struggle with relying on a unelected , corporate body to enforce the rights that we have fought for .

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

How are those powers going to be democratically reallocated if we leave Europe though?

For a start, Britain is only marginally more democratic than Europe; aside the from the unelected head-of-state and upper-chamber, capital basically runs the show as much in Westminster as in Brussels.

If voting to "take back powers" merely empowers people to further roll-back workers' rights, rights to organise, freedom of movement etc (and it will), we will be in a significantly worse position than we are now.

Well, the majority of the country does not want freedom of movement within the EU, so that's a plus. And if we use our new-found sovereignty and democracy to fuck ourselves over then at least we'll only have ourselves to blame. To say that we should just let someone else control how we live because we'd only fuck it up is spineless and submissive beyond belief. Passivity is punished, always.

 

[Alty]

I don't see why Europe need be a left/right issue. I'm not sure who or what is meant to comprise the radical left these days, but I don't see why you shouldn't be able to identify as such just because you might be broadly pro-European in outlook. There's a myriad of reasons as to why someone might identify as a Europhile or a Eurosceptic. Wishing to honour the memory of Tony Benn and Michael Foot seems among the worst reasons one could give for adopting the latter position.

We all have to have some sort of prism through which we view the world. All I'm saying that is if you're genuinely left-wing there's no way you can favour the European Union in its current guise.

Unfortunately an unpleasant lie that all Eurosceptics are racist/xenophobic has taken hold and seems to be clouding the judgement of many people who are opposed to the Tories but unsure of precisely what they're for.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

that's up to us, we can't affect change in the uk if we have to rely on an inherently undemocratic body to back up our rights. I completely understand your argument but I struggle with relying on a unelected , corporate body to enforce the rights that we have fought for .

Me too. Such is my pessimism about and hatred of Britain, I fear what would replace it.

 

[Aber gas]

Me too. Such is my pessimism about and hatred of Britain, I fear what would replace it.

i think and hope you would be surprised .

 

[Aber gas]

I have no problem with freedom of movement but why should it be only between countries in an artificial EU block ? It's racist in itself to give free entry to people from for example Poland but not to people from for example Bangladesh .