The Labour Thread

[mnb089mnb]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/the-suns-front-page-about-jeremy-corbyn-is-wrong-says-its-ow

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

it was as bad with Miliband............the newspapers are 'supposed' to give a general all across board view of things.

In the last 3 years the Sun and Mail have been extremely bias towards one party to extreme levels, of course the reasons why are obvious, but it must be crossing afew laws/rules for a national paper the way its been.

that sun one mentioned is ridiculous, slagging the guy off a day into job over something pretty much trivial.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

If we're going to get into completely semantic piddle then we might as well toss the argument out of the window altogether. For whatever reason, you insist on sticking to a weird rigid logic that is bereft of context when discussing matters that fundamentally demand a nuanced, critical perspective, so I'll just cut straight to the chase.

Let's take for granted that racism was concocted in the linguistic primordial ooze and shall remain ever unmalleable and just so in its definition, regardless of how we apply it, until the dying days of Miriam-Webster

I'm perfectly comfortable with embracing an organic cultural change in word usage, I'd wager more so than most, it's the cynical redefining of a word by a group of people of one particular political persuasion that I take exception to. This isn't about communicating more easily, your narrow notion of racism is foreign to most people, this is about facilitating the perpetuation of a certain set of social theories and ideologies without having to deal with all those pesky negative connotations attached to the word racism, as most people understand it.

* Black people can be racist against white people in hypothetical scenarios. [...]

In real scenarios. It just isn't systemic, in the West at least.

* You could argue under strict and justifiable logic, for example, that Mugabe is an anti-white racist, but also that the situation in Zimbabwe is too complex to be directly compared to a legacy of racism that, under many guises, of varying severity, has exploited and dehumanised people of various colours to satisfy the greed and power of white people (a very simplistic analysis, but, you know, bullet points. A lot of the time working class whites were played off against working class blacks which benefited neither, for example).
* We have to accept in this scenario that what we understand as racism as applied in these discussions is not racism because otherwise we implicitly suggest that legitimate hatred for white power structures and/or white supremacy, of which as mentioned before has a long, extensive history and an even more potent legacy, is comparable or somehow on par with legitimate forms of discrimination and oppression which most white people (or white cis-gendered men, at least) will never have to experience.

See, this is the problem in my opinion. You've created this caricature of what you think racism is, you've decided that that's what we all understand racism to be, and because other forms of racism don't conform, you've decided that we need to redefine racism. We do not. It makes absolutely no sense to try and condense such a broad and simple term into something complex and specific, not when, as you have already hinted at, we already have terms for the things you're talking about in 'white supremacy' and 'the white power structure', and a host of other categorized terms. The idea that using these terms is less appropriate than using an ideologically appropriated version of 'racism' and then pulling people up who don't do that too, is absurd to me.

I think there's also this misunderstanding that when people cite examples of racism against whites they are somehow trying to put it on par in severity with racism against minorities. I would suggest that, by and large, outside of total morons, this is not the case. If anything, they're simply trying to illustrate a perceived racist hypocrisy in those that would approach the two phenomena with such a double standard so as to suggest or imply that one of them doesn't even exist.

If this is about Diane Abbott's "divide and rule" tweet to Bim Adewumni, I'm decidedly #notarsed, both by the weight of the remark's consequence on prejudice towards white people and the (in)validity of it.

She's made quite a few creepy comments of that sort. There was one about West Indians making better mothers than people of other ethnic backgrounds, and another about why it was inappropriate to employ "blonde, blue-eyed Finnish girls" in her local hospital because they'd probably never even seen a black person before.

 

[Benji]

Could Jeremy Corbyn's dad beat up Vladmir Putin's dad?

 

[AFCB_Mark]

So it looks like both Labour and the Tories are going to be infighting about Europe come referendum time then...

 

[blade1889]

So it looks like both Labour and the Tories are going to be infighting about Europe come referendum time then...

Gonna give a lot of people a complex!haha

The Corbyn supporters I know want to remain in the EU and mock the Tory/UKIP voters that want out. And visa versa. Will be amusing to watch anyway and interesting to see how both parties tackle it.

 

[Alty]

Gonna give a lot of people a complex!haha

The Corbyn supporters I know want to remain in the EU and mock the Tory/UKIP voters that want out. And visa versa. Will be amusing to watch anyway and interesting to see how both parties tackle it.

The supporters you know don't know their arse from their elbow, in that case. Anyone on the radical left cannot possibly support the EU in its current guise.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Renationalising the railways is actually a very popular idea, even among some Tories. Likewise renationalising water, am I right in thinking nobody can actually choose their water supplier anyway? I think economically he will strike a chord in the way Farage briefly did, but on a larger scale. I think he will have to renounce his views on nuclear disarmament though, that would scupper any chance he might have.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

"They call us deficit deniers. But then they spend billions cutting taxes for the richest families or for the most profitable businesses.

"What they are is poverty deniers: ignoring the growing queues at food banks. Ignoring the growing housing crisis. Cutting tax credits when child poverty rose by half a million under the last government to over four million. Let's be clear, austerity is a political choice."

G'won Jeremy.

 

[Pliny Harris]

The supporters you know don't know their arse from their elbow, in that case. Anyone on the radical left cannot possibly support the EU in its current guise.

Indeed, but if we were to leave the EU with 4+ years of Tory rule ahead...

 

[blade1889]

The supporters you know don't know their arse from their elbow, in that case. Anyone on the radical left cannot possibly support the EU in its current guise.

May be so, do all the Corbyn supporters on here want out of the EU? Red, et al.?

 

[rudebwoyben]

I'm conflicted about the EU at the moment. Up to this summer I've always wanted in but the way the troika has treated Greece has been alarming.
On the other hand we do need a Europe-wide response to many of our big issues. Also, personally I've got a lot of friends in London who've benefitted from the EU's freedom of movement.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

May be so, do all the Corbyn supporters on here want out of the EU? Red, et al.?

I think many would change their tune were the issue framed the right way. I mean, without their internationalist streak, Labour would surely be anti-EU already.

 

[Dave-Vale]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34260902

Why the fuck are the working poor being left to bear the burden?

 

[blade1889]

I think many would change their tune were the issue framed the right way. I mean, without their internationalist streak, Labour would surely be anti-EU already.

How would you want it framing? Genuinely interested btw.

The right wing argument to get out of the EU seems to be to stop immigration and funds leaving to the EU...so what's the left-wing argument?

 

[SALTIRE]

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

How would you want it framing? Genuinely interested btw.

The right wing argument to get out of the EU seems to be to stop immigration and funds leaving to the EU...so what's the left-wing argument?

That it only serves to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Unchecked immigration creates a surplus of workers which drives wages down and pits working class people against one another, while over zealous EU regulations hurt small businesses while big ones take the hit with relative ease. Labour opposing the EU is Labour opposing the corporate elite just as much as reigning in the banks and energy companies would be.

 

[Aber gas]

How would you want it framing? Genuinely interested btw.

The right wing argument to get out of the EU seems to be to stop immigration and funds leaving to the EU...so what's the left-wing argument?

My major issues with eu , the European commision and European federalism are firstly a lack of accountability, who votes for them ? Are they democratically accountable to people in this country ? In both cases I'd argue that they are not . I am also opposed to our sovereignty being eroded , we should make our own decisions as a nation for better or worse. Finally there is the issue of corporate accountability , the eu and to an even greater extent the single currency makes it easier for companies to move money from country to country avoiding paying tax in the country that the company made their money in .
There are lot of other issues regarding corruption and the monumental waste of resources but these are my main objections .

 

[blade1889]

. Unchecked immigration creates a surplus of workers which drives wages down and pits working class people against one another, while over zealous EU regulations hurt small businesses while big ones take the hit with relative ease. .

Would be fair to say that (at least for the first point) right & left wing views are quite well aligned then?..re the worries of immigration harming jobs!?

The latter point seems fairly neutral to me? I think people on all sides would support small business growth...

 

[blade1889]

My major issues with eu , the European commision and European federalism are firstly a lack of accountability, who votes for them ? Are they democratically accountable to people in this country ? In both cases I'd argue that they are not . I am also opposed to our sovereignty being eroded , we should make our own decisions as a nation for better or worse. Finally there is the issue of corporate accountability , the eu and to an even greater extent the single currency makes it easier for companies to move money from country to country avoiding paying tax in the country that the company made their money in .
There are lot of other issues regarding corruption and the monumental waste of resources but these are my main objections .

Reading both your and EGs comments it seems its the big corporates that you're both against? Intriguingly that seems to be something mentioned by both political extremes, and only really goes against the Torys. Will be interesting to see how that plays out..

I would definitely agree with the Sovereignty aspect, it seems that ass country we fit less & less well with the EU.

Ok...new question, in my opinion both the SNP & greens are quite left. Why do they both still support being in the EU? With many people saying an EU exit would lead to a Scottish breakaway to stay in the EU

 

[mnb089mnb]

Greens aren't pro EU in its current form.

 

[Aber gas]

Reading both your and EGs comments it seems its the big corporates that you're both against? Intriguingly that seems to be something mentioned by both political extremes, and only really goes against the Torys. Will be interesting to see how that plays out..

I would definitely agree with the Sovereignty aspect, it seems that ass country we fit less & less well with the EU.

Ok...new question, in my opinion both the SNP & greens are quite left. Why do they both still support being in the EU? With many people saying an EU exit would lead to a Scottish breakaway to stay in the EU

Both parties are very broad churches even more than labour ! I think the snp especially are quite prepared to change their focus if not their policies to whatever is politicaly expedient , for example Scottish independence has certainly taken a back seat recently. Who knows what the greens think , their policies flip between perfectly sensible to bat shit crazy in two press conferences .

 

[Alty]

The EU is also completely inimical to the interests of the developing world. If you're a poor African farmer trying to sell your goods into Europe you're at a significant disadvantage because of tariffs and, in the agricultural sector, CAP.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

Why are we talking about the EU in this thread when Corbyn refused to sing the National Anthem?

Get your priorities in order people! Oh and burn him!!

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

This Anthem debate seems abit ridiculous.

At least I never have to buy a poppy anymore since its been clearly decided that if you do not sing the anthem or button up the top button of your shirt (I do neither) then you are a disgrace to Britain and war veterans.

 

[smat]

He's going to get ripped apart over this stupid fucking poppy business.

 

[mnb089mnb]

I've stood silent while the British national anthem played on more than one ocassion. Hadn't realised I was doing something that was so abhorrent by the establishment.

If Corbyn is a republican then he'd be a hypocrit to sing it. It's not as if he booed the anthem or disrespected anyone. Standing in silence with your head bowed is about as respectful you can be to anything.

Corbyn may not win the next election, he may not even be in charge of Labour in 12 months time. But it's going to be funny seeing the media (and social media) go into meltdown whenever Corbyn does something that's seen as counter to the way The Sun like things.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

I'm an atheist. Does that make me a hypocrite to sing GSTQ? Maybe.

Whilst it's far from the biggest issue we could be talking about at the moment, stuff like this will only prevent and over shadow Corbyn's actual views and policy being reported in the media, which is surely more important to him and Labour because they need to get their arguments across to the masses. Not just Trade Union conferences.

It'll be interesting to see how he approaches remembrance Sunday and the opposition leader's responsibilities to it.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I've stood silent while the British national anthem played on more than one ocassion. Hadn't realised I was doing something that was so abhorrent by the establishment.

If Corbyn is a republican then he'd be a hypocrit to sing it. It's not as if he booed the anthem or disrespected anyone. Standing in silence with your head bowed is about as respectful you can be to anything.

Corbyn may not win the next election, he may not even be in charge of Labour in 12 months time. But it's going to be funny seeing the media (and social media) go into meltdown whenever Corbyn does something that's seen as counter to the way The Sun like things.

Hear hear.

I have a much higher respect for someone who sticks to their principles even though doing so is against the norm than someone who does all they can to appear normal.

Sadly, in being different, he's probably lost the election already even before policies come in to play.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I'm an atheist. Does that make me a hypocrite to sing GSTQ? Maybe.

I wouldn't say you're a hypocrite. I doubt many people sing it because they truly believe in the words but more that they want to feel patriotic or feel they have to.

If I'm in a church, I refuse to say the Lord's Prayer and remain silent but I'd probably sing along to GSTQ at a football match.