The Labour Thread

[HertsWolf]

I feel like you're posing a false dichotomy. It doesn't have to be PR robot on the one hand vs gobshite who never pauses for a second before thinking on the other.

Corbyn can express views with which many will disagree, and yes, even use that as a virtue as he'll be seen to be honest and straightforward. "I believe in renationalising the railways", as an example. Fine. Good.

But careless talk about the Falklands and xenophobia...he just needs to check himself and think about how stuff like that is going to be portrayed by others.

I accept a lot of the criticism he gets is unwarranted but he needs to wise up and start thinking about the impression people have of him and how he can improve the public's perceptions. Does he want to win the next election or not? Sturgeon and Farage are both much better politicians. I accept its hard for Corbyn because he never actually geared himself up for leadership, but he's got to improve pronto.

I think gobshite is a bit OTT. The guy's fairly principled. Personally, I'm not overly keen on some of those principles, but he strikes me (and probably many others) as being a decent bloke. How much difference does a PM really make to the country's course? In some respects, isn't it all a great juggernaut that changes course ever so slowly anyway? Having a decent, honest bloke at the top can't be too disastrous.

One person's naivety is another's refreshing honesty. Farage and Sturgeon (in particular) may well both be better politicians but they are handicapped by smaller electoral possibilities. A bloke in the pub the other night said "Wonder how Labour would have faired had Nigel Farage been a leading socialist?".

IMHO, the fate of Labour at the next election depends much more on what they can take back from the SNP. If Corbyn needs to wise up on anything, it would be to spend a lot more time north of the border. No, not between Zones 1 and 2, Jeremy....the Scottish border.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

nah, there's still the possibility of reconciliation with the SNP. win some votes elsewhere and entering into a coalition with the scots would be the better course

 

[Alty]

nah, there's still the possibility of reconciliation with the SNP. win some votes elsewhere and entering into a coalition with the scots would be the better course

From my own point of view this sounds logical, but in the South of England it seems like fear of the SNP scared a lot of people into voting Tory at the GE. In particular it seems to have caused a collapse in the LD vote.

I suspect Labour's only chance of getting back into power is to wrest back control of Scotland. A very, very big ask at this moment in time.

 

[HertsWolf]

nah, there's still the possibility of reconciliation with the SNP. win some votes elsewhere and entering into a coalition with the scots would be the better course

The thought that voting Labour would contribute to dividing the country would stop many voting Labour. They need original thought.

From my own point of view this sounds logical, but in the South of England it seems like fear of the SNP scared a lot of people into voting Tory at the GE. In particular it seems to have caused a collapse in the LD vote.
I suspect Labour's only chance of getting back into power is to wrest back control of Scotland. A very, very big ask at this moment in time.

I share your view. Wresting back control means establishing what Labour is and isn't. But it's not a static game...SNP, LD and UKIP are all also moving on. Is Labour moving on or moving backwards?

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Hilary Benn set to be sacked in a reshuffle next week, according to reports on BBC and papers this morning. Comes after he and Corbyn clashed over Syria.

 

[Alty]

Hilary Benn set to be sacked in a reshuffle next week, according to reports on BBC and papers this morning. Comes after he and Corbyn clashed over Syria.

That won't look brilliant. Allow a free vote, then sack the bloke after he makes the case.

I can't think of any obvious replacements for shadow foreign secretary either.

 

[SUTSS]

Comes across as a little petty and authoritarian.

 

[blade1889]

Can see why he'd do it-show the many Labour supporters hes against the Syrian bombing and try to strengthen his support with them but it doesn't come across good. Hes furthering his support with people who support him already and declining support with people whose support he isn't guaranteed

 

[Pliny Harris]

Don't know about anyone else, but Danczuk being suspended from Labour for being a bit of a paedo is great news to cap the year off. The suspension side to it, I mean. The other part's horrible.

 

[mowgli]

Don't know about anyone else, but Danczuk being suspended from Labour for being a bit of a paedo is great news to cap the year off. The suspension side to it, I mean. The other part's horrible.

I find the whole thing very strange. At the same time as he's trying to get justice for abused kids he starts sending dirty texts to an 18 year old girl, just so wrong in every way.

 

[Alty]

Absolutely idiotic apart from quite wrong. He'll do well to ride out the storm and stick around after this.

 

[SUTSS]

It couldn't happen to a nicer fellow.

 

[Pliny Harris]

I find the whole thing very strange. At the same time as he's trying to get justice for abused kids he starts sending dirty texts to an 18 year old girl, just so wrong in every way.

As well as writing a whole tome on the double life of Cyril Smith. Utter sleaze.

 

[Dave-Vale]

1 Blairite out. Hopefully some more skeletons start coming out to get rid of the rest.

 

[pride_of_notts]

What a silly lad not a fan of Danczuk far to right wing for my taste but he has laid himself on a platter for Corbyn it will be interesting to see if he gets kicked out of the Labour party.

 

[Dave-Vale]

Corbyn should (but won't) tear this clown totally apart. Corbyn has done a fantastic job so far but I feel he needs to toughen up with these dissenters. Put his foot down and show the Blairite, Red Tory bastards that have hijacked the Labour Party who is the boss.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

It's hard to make a case against the suspension. Even if one accepts that no crime was committed (the police investigated and thought not), and even if one accepts that no significant abuse of power took place (currently a question mark over that, I reckon), there is still the basic problem that the chap has made a gigantic arse of himself and dragged his party's name through the mud in the process. Doing nothing would have been a PR disaster.

But for what it's worth – and I say this someone who doesn't much like the bloke – I don't think anything too sinister went on here. He's a buffoon, and he appears to have been operating in hyper-buffoon mode ever since his second wife (a thoroughly odd creature who seems addicted to photographing her own tits) left him last summer. It's all very undignified and it casts serious doubt over his suitability to be an MP, but what happened was quite a way off child abuse. It's a shame, then, that so much of the reporting and comment seems intent on drawing some comparison between his behaviour and the very real child sex abuse that went on in Rotherham and/or the abuse he uncovered in his investigations of Cyril Smith. That seems completely off to me.

It's worth bearing in mind that he's made a lot of enemies in recent years. Some of that is just intra-party bickering and largely attributable to his own stupidity (if memory serves, he was talking up a coup against Corbyn before the Labour leadership election was even finished), but no doubt he also pissed off a bunch of people by digging so deeply into the Cyril Smith thing. That's not just about one paedophile MP. It's about what various bodies – the Home Office, MI5, numerous police forces – knew about Smith and the whole Elm Guest House scandal generally. It's naive to think you can go digging into that without making some powerful enemies.

Not suggesting this was a stitch up, BTW. He's in this position because he's a bloody buffoon. Just saying that what happens to him next will be quite interesting, especially when considered in that wider context.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

It's hard to make a case against the suspension. Even if one accepts that no crime was committed (the police investigated and thought not), and even if one accepts that no significant abuse of power took place (currently a question mark over that, I reckon), there is still the basic problem that the chap has made a gigantic arse of himself and dragged his party's name through the mud in the process. Doing nothing would have been a PR disaster.

But for what it's worth – and I say this someone who doesn't much like the bloke – I don't think anything too sinister went on here. He's a buffoon, and he appears to have been operating in hyper-buffoon mode ever since his second wife (a thoroughly odd creature who seems addicted to photographing her own tits) left him last summer. It's all very undignified and it casts serious doubt over his suitability to be an MP, but what happened was quite a way off child abuse. It's a shame, then, that so much of the reporting and comment seems intent on drawing some comparison between his behaviour and the very real child sex abuse that went on in Rotherham and/or the abuse he uncovered in his investigations of Cyril Smith. That seems completely off to me.

It's worth bearing in mind that he's made a lot of enemies in recent years. Some of that is just intra-party bickering and largely attributable to his own stupidity (if memory serves, he was talking up a coup against Corbyn before the Labour leadership election was even finished), but no doubt he also pissed off a bunch of people by digging so deeply into the Cyril Smith thing. That's not just about one paedophile MP. It's about what various bodies – the Home Office, MI5, numerous police forces – knew about Smith and the whole Elm Guest House scandal generally. It's naive to think you can go digging into that without making some powerful enemies.

Not suggesting this was a stitch up, BTW. He's in this position because he's a bloody buffoon. Just saying that what happens to him next will be quite interesting, especially when considered in that wider context.

The sexting is really grim - almost certainly abusive given the power imbalance and the fact that she was trying to get a job as a researcher. He needs to resign as an MP for just that.

But the allegations made by Danczuk's first wife are even more grim and paint a portrait of a serial rapist and abuser of intimate partners. The impunity is the same as with Smith - whether it's a man threatening to ruin his disobedient wife or a serial paedophile benefiting from an institutional cover-up.

Obviously you don't have to be an MP or a powerful member of the establishment to get away with intimate partner violence; being a man pretty much suffices 99% of the time (and I can think of prominent left-of-labour trade unionists and senior figures in revolutionary Trotskyist parties that have benefited from the same impunity).

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I agree he should resign. The crude (but not inaccurate summary) is that a young woman contacted her MP to enquire about a job and it somehow progressed to him texting her spank fantasies and descriptions of his penis. No positive spin can be put on that, and it's certainly not my intention to try.

My comment that the whole thing doesn't appear "too sinister" should be considered in a wider context, with sinisterness judged relative to things like the abuse in Rochdale and that perpetrated by Cyril Smith. Various reporters and commentators have made comparisons in a way that implies Danzcuk is a massive hypocrite and essentially no better than people who committed truly terrible acts of child sex abuse. The second part of that is what I object to.

I can't be arsed arguing back and forth over whether his behaviour was predatory and exploitive or merely the ten zillionth instance of a sad middle-aged man flirting with a young woman and making a complete tit of himself. The truth probably resides somewhere in the middle, and all we can do is conjecture back and forth on the basis of the available evidence, which amounts to little more than some predictably shitty tabloid journalism. Neither of us know, and frankly there are better things to do.

I agree that his ex-wife's allegations are very concerning. Though she doesn't use the exact words, what she described is clearly serial rape. It will be interesting to see whether she now makes formal allegations to the police (which arguably would have been a better starting point than selling the story to The Mail on Sunday). We'll see what comes of it, I guess. That story broke after my last post. Had I posted 24 hours later, that post might have been different. I dunno.

 

[blade1889]

Thoughts on the reshuffle?

See someone's just resigned over it

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Well Benn didn't get the boot in the end, a re-think went on there. Just lesser known lower profile dissenters have gone.
The obvious jipe is one of hypocrisy regarding Corbyn's decades of dissent, but then it's his prerogative as elected leader after all.
If this is to be believed - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35235931 - then the PLP is only going to get more upset with him.

 

[GodsGift]

The whole thing is just a shambles really. Once again all the focus is on how much of a mess the party is in, rather than debating the issues of the day or opposing the government. I imagine Cameron will have a field day at PMQs this afternoon.

 

[silkyman]

I agree he should resign. The crude (but not inaccurate summary) is that a young woman contacted her MP to enquire about a job and it somehow progressed to him texting her spank fantasies and descriptions of his penis. No positive spin can be put on that, and it's certainly not my intention to try.

My comment that the whole thing doesn't appear "too sinister" should be considered in a wider context, with sinisterness judged relative to things like the abuse in Rochdale and that perpetrated by Cyril Smith. Various reporters and commentators have made comparisons in a way that implies Danzcuk is a massive hypocrite and essentially no better than people who committed truly terrible acts of child sex abuse. The second part of that is what I object to.

I can't be arsed arguing back and forth over whether his behaviour was predatory and exploitive or merely the ten zillionth instance of a sad middle-aged man flirting with a young woman and making a complete tit of himself. The truth probably resides somewhere in the middle, and all we can do is conjecture back and forth on the basis of the available evidence, which amounts to little more than some predictably shitty tabloid journalism. Neither of us know, and frankly there are better things to do.

I agree that his ex-wife's allegations are very concerning. Though she doesn't use the exact words, what she described is clearly serial rape. It will be interesting to see whether she now makes formal allegations to the police (which arguably would have been a better starting point than selling the story to The Mail on Sunday). We'll see what comes of it, I guess. That story broke after my last post. Had I posted 24 hours later, that post might have been different. I dunno.

Wasn't she working as a dominatrix at the time?

 

[blade1889]

And another has quit, farce

Was thinking the other day how impressed I was that Corbyn seemed to have stemmed the dissenters, despite news papers insisting Labour will still in-fighting massively. Oops.

 

[mowgli]

Cameron absolutely slaughtered Corbyn at PMQ's,mind you it wasn't hard considering Corbyn left himself wide open with his actions over the last few days and to make Cameron look good things will only get worse for Labour until they come up with an alternative leader who can bring the party together to fight the Tories not each other. Hilary Benn would be my choice.

 

[Aber gas]

The PLP can piss and moan all they want. The fact is Corbyn was democratically elected leader by the party with a huge mandate. What makes you think this won't happen again in the face of any coup?
The calls for Benn ( his dear father must be spinning btw) or Johnson are pissing in the wind by disgruntled MPs who either need to get down to the job they are paid for or ship out. How effective can Corbyn be without the PLP listening to it's own membership and getting behind Corbyn.
I think it's perhaps time that some of these class traitors either shut up or resign from the party, causing by- elections. We'll see what happens then eh?

 

[Pliny Harris]

Kevan Jones and Stephen Doughty's statements both appear to be constructive, definitely compared to Dugher's silly mince yesterday anyway. They seem more sincere than trying to uproot Corbyn foremost.

We're talking about a leader who is dealing within a party where only a small proportion see eye-to-eye with him, a Labour party named so for a reason, in the support of workers and peace. The vast majority are overcome with the wish to defend profit and the social order before any wish to defend people's basic needs, and are easily more Tory than democratic or socialist. That's always going to be wrestled over and it will never be easy, but it's essential to see through. No amount of social pressure should be able to stop someone from being right.

In a world of democratic press, today could have been all about the government's silence over flood defences, which they have spent 20% less on in real terms, compared to the increase of 75% over the previous Labour government, over a minor and commonplace cabinet reshuffle. Plenty of very real and abhorrent things are taking place underneath the media's own orchestrations.

 

[smat]

The PLP can piss and moan all they want. The fact is Corbyn was democratically elected leader by the party with a huge mandate. What makes you think this won't happen again in the face of any coup?

Because no radical left winger could now get the requisite number of nominations to run for the leadership. Corbyn only scraped in because a few MPs agreed to help include him in the ballot to 'broaden the debate' or something. Now they know someone like that would get in, they won't be doing that again.

 

[Alty]

The next election could be bloody mental. A Labour Party practically torn in two by the left-right struggle. A Tory Party divided on Europe. The Women's Equality Party will probably win at this rate.

 

[Alty]

Did anyone notice Harriet Harman saying that the Labour constitution should be changed to stipulate that either the leader or deputy leader of the party must be a woman, btw?

That woman really is a blow to modern feminism.