The Labour Thread

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Are you suggesting that me calling someone's view intellectually lazy is the same as me calling it intellectually lazy purely because it's different than my own?

 

[Aber gas]

Are you suggesting that me calling someone's view intellectually lazy is the same as me calling it intellectually lazy purely because it's different than my own?

That about sums it up, finally. It's a form of shutting down debate.This is tedious.

 

[Alty]

Taking the view that military intervention is not always the best option is not making excuses for tyrants or terrorists. You mention the IRA in your post, the British government as well as Clinton, Allbright and even Paisley have sat down with former commanders. The only difference between them and Corbyn is that he was brave enough to do it in a less favourable political climate.
Not every problem in the world can be resolved by force, sometimes politicians have to sit down with bile people. It seems when mainstream politicians do it it's called realpolitik and when left wing politicians do it's called supporting or making an excuse for a tyrant.

The only difference between Corbyn and Paisley is the former was brave enough to talk to Repiblicans in a less favourable political climate??

I'm not sure you have the faintest idea what you're talking about.

 

[SUTSS]

Taking the view that military intervention is not always the best option is not making excuses for tyrants or terrorists. You mention the IRA in your post, the British government as well as Clinton, Allbright and even Paisley have sat down with former commanders. The only difference between them and Corbyn is that he was brave enough to do it in a less favourable political climate.
Not every problem in the world can be resolved by force, sometimes politicians have to sit down with bile people. It seems when mainstream politicians do it it's called realpolitik and when left wing politicians do it's called supporting or making an excuse for a tyrant.

As EG pointed out that wasn't the point I was making. The pros and cons of military intervention are a different debate. A debate we will no doubt have when inevitably the discussion moves to ground troops in Northern Iraq and Syria over the next year or so.

My point was that when gunmen murder people in Paris we get articles from Stop The War about how the French brought it upon themselves. When the murders of the satirists at Charlie Hebdo happened they brought it upon themselves. When Russia annexes land from another sovereign state and occupies more of it then it's not Russia's fault but it was the west, NATO and the EU that were provoking the Kremlin. I could go on and on. The point I am making is that Corbyn et al's view seems to be that western violence is evil, non-western violence is the fault of the west. If they were true pacifists they would be against all violence.

 

[Aber gas]

The only difference between Corbyn and Paisley is the former was brave enough to talk to Repiblicans in a less favourable political climate??

I'm not sure you have the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Obviously there are a lot of general differences between the men. I was talking about sitting down with republicans.
Not sure there is any need to be rude to me.

 

[Alty]

Obviously there are a lot of general differences between the men. I was talking about sitting down with republicans.
Not sure there is any need to be rude to me.

Paisley refused to sit down with Republicans until they recognised the rule of law. It was nothing to do with bravery. It was about negotiations being pointless unless Sinn Fein recognised the police and accepted the constitutional status quo.

 

[Aber gas]

Paisley refused to sit down with Republicans until they recognised the rule of law. It was nothing to do with bravery. It was about negotiations being pointless unless Sinn Fein recognised the police and accepted the constitutional status quo.

A situation brought about through dialogue, negotiation and compromise. So ( more me at least) it seems strange to castigate Corbyn as somehow supporting terrorists for doing exactly that.

 

[Blitzballer]

LOL

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...iane-Abbott-to-impress-Left-wing-friends.html

 

[mowgli]

LOL

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...iane-Abbott-to-impress-Left-wing-friends.html

Never mind a i'd say it was more of a

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

As EG pointed out that wasn't the point I was making. The pros and cons of military intervention are a different debate. A debate we will no doubt have when inevitably the discussion moves to ground troops in Northern Iraq and Syria over the next year or so.

My point was that when gunmen murder people in Paris we get articles from Stop The War about how the French brought it upon themselves. When the murders of the satirists at Charlie Hebdo happened they brought it upon themselves. When Russia annexes land from another sovereign state and occupies more of it then it's not Russia's fault but it was the west, NATO and the EU that were provoking the Kremlin. I could go on and on. The point I am making is that Corbyn et al's view seems to be that western violence is evil, non-western violence is the fault of the west. If they were true pacifists they would be against all violence.

never heard this view before

 

[Womble98]

never heard this view before

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-972b-Nato-belligerence-endangers-us-all#.VrIAVPmLTIU

"Nato belligerence endangers us all"= its the west's fault.

Jeremy Corbyn on Russia seizing Crimea. Ukraine's borders always "ebbed and flowed with tides of history", you see

That quote within the quote is from a now deleted/removed article on the stop the war website http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news/the-history-lurking-behind-the-crisis-in-ukraine-by-jeremy-corbyn-mp.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

There have actually been quite a few cases of leftists going out to fight for pro-Russian forces in Ukraine. I remember a story about Spain arresting a few of them.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

there are whole marxist brigades fighting with the kurds in syria too, spanish again. u could write an interesting paper juxtaposing the spanish civil war's romanticism and internationalism with the call to fight in syria i feel

 

[Womble98]

https://twitter.com/janinegibson/status/725658328731373569

 

[Aber gas]

Poor Ken

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

I don't think he merits any sympathy. I've always had a little bit of time for him in the past but he can't half be a fucking idiot when he wants to be. Labour needed his intervention like a hole in the head. Makes one want to go FULL DEIRDRE

 

[Alty]

Liked for the gif.

 

[Max]

Great gif.

Today George Galloway waded in to defend Ken Livingstone. Galloway is my political anti-weathercock. In that you can set your stock by the fact he is always, totally, irredeemably wrong. Also he's a cock.

Also, update: Ken's going on Newsnight tonight. Because fuck sake.

 

[Habbinalan]

 

[Habbinalan]

....and so it goes on and on until at some point most of us disengage and put on some music. Billy Bragg anyone?

https://electronicintifada.net/cont...d-uk-labour-partys-anti-semitism-crisis/16481

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/sam-kriss-the-right-has-an-anti-semitism-problem

I was planning to just revert to my core prejudices .......... but I've forgotten what they are beyond the fields of music, non-league football and acceptable sandwich combinations.

 

[Womble98]

What Ken livingstone said was bullshit plain and simple. Hitler was not a Zionist. He did not support the idea of a Jewish state, rather he supported the idea of mass deportation of the jews to wherever so that they were out of the way.

 

[Habbinalan]

What Ken livingstone said was bullshit plain and simple. Hitler was not a Zionist. He did not support the idea of a Jewish state, rather he supported the idea of mass deportation of the jews to wherever so that they were out of the way.

I'm hoping that most have got that far but that doesn't seem to what most people (media) seem to have been talking about today.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/multiple-truths-of-labour-antisemitism-story

Seems almost balanced. Which way am I spinning now?

 

[Womble98]

Anyone wanting a detailed historical explanation on the Haavara agreement here is a good one https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2wyve0/what_was_the_haavara_agreement_about/coveek4

 

[blade1889]

Am I right in saying a Zionist is someone who thinks that there should be an independent Jewish state? Dont too familiar with the term but if thats true and there hasn't been a 1984 style history re-writing then how the hell does Livingstone believe that?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

It's not that far-fetched. If Hitler could have pushed a button and transplanted the entire Jewish population of Europe into the Middle East then he surely would have done.

 

[Womble98]

It's not that far-fetched. If Hitler could have pushed a button and transplanted the entire Jewish population of Europe into the Middle East then he surely would have done.

Without wanting to get into the whole functionalist vs intentionalist debate, the removal of the Jews from the world was Hitler's aim. He spoke at one point about how even in Israel, the Jews would still control much of the world.

 

[Tilbury]

Hitler wasn't a Zionist he carried out anti-Semitic genocide.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

So have the Zionists, in a way...

 

[Tilbury]

Of course and it continues in Israel today.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

 

[.V.]

Meanwhile the Tories candidate for the mayor of London says this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ZAC-GOLDSMITH-four-days-Mayoral-election.html