The Labour Thread

[Alty]

Meanwhile the Tories candidate for the mayor of London says this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ZAC-GOLDSMITH-four-days-Mayoral-election.html

Having gone down the road of linking Khan to extremism, he can't back away now.

I remain baffled by the whole thing. Goldsmith should have played up his own principled stand on the environment, Heathrow and Europe while painting Khan (accurately) to be a flip-flipper and wide boy. But by fighting this stupid racially charged campaign he's fucked it up. Khan is going to win comfortably.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Gotta love the subtlety of the Mail's editorial bias, too. First picture? A bus mangled by a terrorist bomb!

 

[.V.]

Having gone down the road of linking Khan to extremism, he can't back away now.

I remain baffled by the whole thing. Goldsmith should have played up his own principled stand on the environment, Heathrow and Europe while painting Khan (accurately) to be a flip-flipper and wide boy. But by fighting this stupid racially charged campaign he's fucked it up. Khan is going to win comfortably.

Crosbys influence?

 

[Alty]

Crosbys influence?

You'd have to assume so. The mail shots to boroughs with large Hindu and Sikh populations certainly appear to be the work of a cynical political campaigns manager employing negative tactics.

 

[Tilbury]

What makes Khan a wide boy? Because he has done well for himself coming from nothing, becoming a positive role model in the Muslim community and a successful social mobility example?
I prefer that to Zack, whose entire past is defined by his families vast vast wealth and name as well as the several hundred million he inherited when his father passed.

 

[Alty]

What makes Khan a wide boy? Because he has done well for himself coming from nothing, becoming a positive role model in the Muslim community and a successful social mobility example?
I prefer that to Zack, whose entire past is defined by his families vast vast wealth and name as well as the several hundred million he inherited when his father passed.

Eh? Do I really come across like some sort of upper middle class Tory overlord?? I do wonder whether people actually read my posts properly. People seem very quick to assume I hate everyone simply because I don't endorse The Guardian's brand of lefty liberalism in its entirety.

Khan having become a successful lawyer from his relatively humble origins is great. Well done him. But that's irrelevant to the point I'm making. He's a wide boy because he's a typical all things to all men candidate who won his party's candidacy for mayor through extensive behind the scenes lobbying and back room deals. Not because he has an original or exciting vision for London.

 

[Tilbury]

I just found your use of the term wide boy quite puzzling, as an attack against Khan in this particular race against Goldsmith. It implies dodgy or illegitimate behaviour, exactly what I'm sure most of us would desribe zak's racial attacks as (or worse).

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Aside from generally being terrible and featuring a question in the headline that makes my head hurt, that article is really very confused isn't it? Goldsmith and/or his campaign team, seem(s) to have rather too much faith in the "throw enough mud and some will stick" tactic. Is Khan of the "hard-left" or is he a "terrorist sympathiser"? Who knows. Personally, I rather suspect that he may just be a centrist Labour party politician (his political record would attest to this). I'm not sure that guilt by association is really going to work when the leader of the Labour party, in a Labour leaning city, is a local MP, popular among party members. And I'm not sure that Londoners are suddenly going to forget that they entrusted the city to Ken Livingstone for eight years, a man who, although apparently now persona non grata, resolutely failed to destroy the city during his tenure. Khan a "catastrophe"? Probably not.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

Labour party about to break up this morning.

I have a feeling a new party may end up coming through in all this, add in when the tories go ridiculously extreme in next few months its going to be an interesting period coming up.

 

[SUTSS]

When was the last time we had neither an effective government or an effective opposition?

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

When was the last time we had neither an effective government or an effective opposition?

Last week?

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

problem is we've no central party at all really now, its either extreme right or extreme left.

the only centre is the lib dems and its going to take 2-3 general elections for them to ever re-build because no one at present is even listening to them (feel sorry for Farron its like taking over as manager at a club when its gone bankrupt)

IF the SNP decided instead of a referendum to call themselves a UK National Party and pushed south..........i could see them taking afew votes.

 

[Habbinalan]

problem is we've no central party at all really now, its either extreme right or extreme left.

the only centre is the lib dems and its going to take 2-3 general elections for them to ever re-build because no one at present is even listening to them (feel sorry for Farron its like taking over as manager at a club when its gone bankrupt)

IF the SNP decided instead of a referendum to call themselves a UK National Party and pushed south..........i could see them taking afew votes.

Dan Jarvis is looking a strong candidate for a quick succession to the Labour leadership. That might be the basis for building a coherent opposition with some credibility north of Cambridge.

 

[Alty]

How are the rebels going to justify getting rid of Corbyn? It's no time since he comfortably won a leadership election in which party members (and 'supporters') made their intentions perfectly clear.

The party is in danger of going into terminal decline now. Lost its Scottish base. Has been shocked to discover (although some of us weren't) that supporters in its English heartlands don't buy into the parliamentary party's world view. I think Corbyn and McDonnell need time to work on their economic alternative if there's to be any hope of a comeback. Getting rid now and replacing with Benn or Cooper would be madness. A total failure to address the party's deep-rooted problems.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

the only centre is the lib dems and its going to take 2-3 general elections for them to ever re-build because no one at present is even listening to them (feel sorry for Farron its like taking over as manager at a club when its gone bankrupt)

Farron is a bit of an odd one isn't he? He's been anonymous yet criticised Corbyn for doing the same.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Labour found itself misjudging and on the wrong side of North England and Wales, what should be Labour strongholds. When that happens I guess a shake up is inevitable, although to my mind Corbyn having long been a hard left euro skeptic seems an ideal leader for a Labour movement in an exiting EU situation.

Hillary Benn (who Corbyn seems to have sacked?) or Andy Burnham perhaps next up? I've always thought Burnham talked a good game.

 

[Habbinalan]

How are the rebels going to justify getting rid of Corbyn? It's no time since he comfortably won a leadership election in which party members (and 'supporters') made their intentions perfectly clear.

The party is in danger of going into terminal decline now. Lost its Scottish base. Has been shocked to discover (although some of us weren't) that supporters in its English heartlands don't buy into the parliamentary party's world view. I think Corbyn and McDonnell need time to work on their economic alternative if there's to be any hope of a comeback. Getting rid now and replacing with Benn or Cooper would be madness. A total failure to address the party's deep-rooted problems.

Labour found itself misjudging and on the wrong side of North England and Wales, what should be Labour strongholds. When that happens I guess a shake up is inevitable, although to my mind Corbyn having long been a hard left euro skeptic seems an ideal leader for a Labour movement in an exiting EU situation.

Hillary Benn (who Corbyn seems to have sacked?) or Andy Burnham perhaps next up? I've always thought Burnham talked a good game.

Provided they can find a candidate that Corbyn can quietly accept and step down, the MPs will have no hesitation getting rid of Corbyn (and McDonnell). They recognise that if they don't many (most?) will be out of a job at the next election.

I agree that Benn and Cooper have too much baggage. Burnham may be part of the new leadership group but Jarvis is tailor made for the media - Barnsley MP, no obvious baggage, decorated war hero. Better get on with it, whoever they choose, whilst the right wing media is focussed on the Tory infighting.

 

[Dave-Vale]

Hilary has been sacked the back stabbing little shit. Hopefully Corbyn will start to get tougher on his party rebels and start proving to people that he is a leader. As for Margaret Hodge, she should've done time in prison for covering up a child abuse scandal TWICE! when she worked for Islington council, it is also interesting that her constituents voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU and Corbyn's voted overwhelmingly to remain.

I can't believe they have the nerve to slate him and start a fucking coup against him when Labour are in the best place they've been for a while. Party membership is on the up and they've engaged younger voters (the ones who mostly voted remain and the ones who could swing the 'swing constituencies' in their favour).

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

The problem is corbyn showed here he has zero leadership qualities.

If he would have rather leave he was better to allow open views and passionately go to leave, instead he kept quiet and no one noticed he existed.

You wont win a gen election with that approach, he had a chance to show his party leadership and showed them instead a shy mumbling fool

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I spent most of the referendum campaign thinking Leave would lose by 10 points, and hoping we'd only lose by something like 4-6 points. I was convinced that Remain's economic doom-mongering would win the day. I've spent a fair bit of time since Thursday trying to work out why I got it so completely wrong.

It would seem, based on the available evidence, that the referendum was won by disgruntled working class people in the North, many of them traditional Labour voters. The point that I (and so many others) missed is that the threat of economic decline is only powerful against those who feel they have something to lose. Perhaps some were cognisant of that but severely underestimated how many people now fall into that "nowt to lose" category...

In some respects this ties into an argument us swivel-eyed EU-sceptics on the right have been making for years, i.e. that while EU membership might be economically beneficial to the country overall, those benefits are not enjoyed universally. It might benefit people like me, but at what cost to Keith the unemployed joiner in Middlesborough? The Blairites have never had a satisfactory answer to that question. They’ve been happy to ignore it, assuming (correctly, until very recently) that anti-Tory sentiment would motivate those people to vote Labour anyway.

This has A LOT to do with Thursday's result. Jeremy Corbyn's half-hearted efforts towards the Remain campaign is a trifling irrelevance in comparison. The idea that a Labour Party led by a Blairite like David Miliband or Chuka Umunna (or lovely Stella) would have led to a drastically different result is risible. It's a complete misdiagnosis of the problem. On various key issues of national importance, Blairite Labour simply doesn’t represent the interests of millions of traditional Labour voters, especially in the North; and for all their earnest sounding guff about "listening", "learning lessons" and "reconnecting", they're still in abject denial about that.

Corbyn is probably on borrowed time now, but it's not his fault that Leave won the referendum. The blame actually belongs to the sort of wankers who are now trying to get rid of him.

 

[Habbinalan]

I spent most of the referendum campaign thinking Leave would lose by 10 points, and hoping we'd only lose by something like 4-6 points. I was convinced that the Remain's side economic doom-mongering would win the day. I've spent a fair bit of time since Thursday trying to work out why I got it so completely wrong.

It would seem, based on the available evidence, that the referendum was won by disgruntled working class people in the North, many of them traditional Labour voters. The point that I (and so many others) missed is that the threat of economic decline is only a powerful against those who feel they have something to lose. Perhaps some were cognisant of that but severely underestimated how many people now fall into that category...

In some respects this ties into an argument us swivel-eyed EU-sceptics on the right have been making for years, i.e. that while EU membership might be economically beneficial to the country overall, those benefits are not enjoyed universally. It might benefit people like me, but at what cost to Keith the unemployed joiner in Middlesborough? The Blairites have never had a satisfactory answer to that question. They’ve been happy to ignore it, assuming (correctly, until very recently) that anti-Tory sentiment would motivate those people to vote Labour anyway.

This has A LOT to do with Thursday's result. Jeremy Corbyn's half-hearted efforts towards the Remain campaign is a trifling irrelevance in comparison. The idea that a Labour Party led by a Blairite like David Miliband or Chuka Umunna (or lovely Stella) would have led to a drastically different result is risible. It's a complete misdiagnosis of the problem. On various key issues of national importance, Blairite Labour simply doesn’t represent the interests of millions of traditional Labour voters, especially in the North; and for all their earnest sounding guff about "listening" and "reconnecting", they're still in denial about that.

Corbyn is probably on borrowed time now, but it's not his fault that Leave won the referendum. The blame actually belongs to the sort of wankers who are now trying to get rid of him.

I agree.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

I spent most of the referendum campaign thinking Leave would lose by 10 points, and hoping we'd only lose by something like 4-6 points. I was convinced that the Remain's side economic doom-mongering would win the day. I've spent a fair bit of time since Thursday trying to work out why I got it so completely wrong.

It would seem, based on the available evidence, that the referendum was won by disgruntled working class people in the North, many of them traditional Labour voters. The point that I (and so many others) missed is that the threat of economic decline is only powerful against those who feel they have something to lose. Perhaps some were cognisant of that but severely underestimated how many people now fall into that category...

In some respects this ties into an argument us swivel-eyed EU-sceptics on the right have been making for years, i.e. that while EU membership might be economically beneficial to the country overall, those benefits are not enjoyed universally. It might benefit people like me, but at what cost to Keith the unemployed joiner in Middlesborough? The Blairites have never had a satisfactory answer to that question. They’ve been happy to ignore it, assuming (correctly, until very recently) that anti-Tory sentiment would motivate those people to vote Labour anyway.

This has A LOT to do with Thursday's result. Jeremy Corbyn's half-hearted efforts towards the Remain campaign is a trifling irrelevance in comparison. The idea that a Labour Party led by a Blairite like David Miliband or Chuka Umunna (or lovely Stella) would have led to a drastically different result is risible. It's a complete misdiagnosis of the problem. On various key issues of national importance, Blairite Labour simply doesn’t represent the interests of millions of traditional Labour voters, especially in the North; and for all their earnest sounding guff about "listening" and "reconnecting", they're still in denial about that.

Corbyn is probably on borrowed time now, but it's not his fault that Leave won the referendum. The blame actually belongs to the sort of wankers who are now trying to get rid of him.

Absolutely hit the nail on the head.

Thing is, Corbyn was always going to be on borrowed time due to the fact that he is a shift from the third way.

There is now an opportunity to usurp him and being Labour back into the neo-liberal consensus, it was always going to happen.

#postpolitics
#postdemocracy

 

[blade1889]

At a time when the Tories are falling apart labour have a great chance to state their direction for the country, put pressure on the new PM before he's even in place. What do they do? Start tearing themselves apart.

It's a ridiculous omnishambles when even people like myself were prepared to get behind a Labour Party for the first time ever...there isn't one to get behind.

 

[Pliny Harris]

Christ alive, let's all tremble in fear at the movers and shakers on the Labour right for a minute.

Tristram Hunt. Voted in in one of the safest Labour seats, the only MP in the country to do so under a turnout of less than 50%. Presides over one of the few urban areas with a declining population.

Hilary Benn. Once delivered a speech with oratorial skills of an old Etonian. Cor.

Dan Jarvis. Sits in the background quietly. But went to war once so everything he says must be right.

Andy Burnham. A weather vane that doesn't even need the wind to blow to pirouette wildly about issues.

Margaret Hodge. Judging by her constituency's own referendum voting, couldn't even cause a Weeble to sway.

Ed Miliband. Left front bench politics. Spent half his leadership being quiet as a mouse, eventually came out with the Big Socialist Statement that was to temporarily freeze energy prices. Still got tarred as a krazy kommie, still couldn't get the MSM behind him despite having some of the most homeopathised labour policy possible.

Tom Watson. Bottles it more than an Arsenal-supporting mineral water factory hand.

Chuka Umunna is about as good as they get and he still lacks conviction and content.

Liz Kendall. Like backing a Hyde United team for promotion while managed by Darren Kelly with a frontline consisting of three Indian runner ducks.

Fall at the feet of these titans.

Anyone who has any intention of living in Blair's shadow, anticipating the Tories' move before coming up with a lite, self-conscious simulation, has been out of ideas and strength for a long time.

Jeremy on the ballot regardless of whatever happens. Meanwhile, a Teflon-coated, extremely polished and canny but ultimately unsuccessful prime minister, has been toppled. And if Corbyn truly lost the EU referendum for Remain, it was Corbyn who toppled him. He's not doing spectacularly but imagine—IMAGINE—if, the next time the Tories were in crisis, the dire deck of hands he has within the PLP would actually go for the ruling party's jugular, rather than their own. Even Laura "Disaster For Corbyn" Kuennsberg would be unsure how to write it.

 

[Gashead]

I hate to be devil's advocate here, and I voted for Corbyn given I thought he'd shift debate towards the left, but I'm very worried that the likes of Momentum are dragging the party apart.

There's a sort of blind optimism that Corbyn would win an election, and yet Labour haven't polled above the Tories for a long, long time, despite them being in the middle of a giant fuck up. Labour should be 10 points clear. Why aren't we?

There are a few options that could possibly unite the party a little bit more, which is vital if the Tories appoint Boris or similar.

 

[Pliny Harris]

Oh, now Chris Leslie's floated putting his cap in the ring.

Fair enough, didn't see that one coming. Corbyn out. Bring on the big guns.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Christ alive, let's all tremble in fear at the movers and shakers on the Labour right for a minute.
Dan Jarvis. Sits in the background quietly. But went to war once so everything he says must be right.

But he was born north of the Watford Gap, Pliny. NORTH! That changes everything!

 

[TheMinsterman]

I hate to be devil's advocate here, and I voted for Corbyn given I thought he'd shift debate towards the left, but I'm very worried that the likes of Momentum are dragging the party apart.

There's a sort of blind optimism that Corbyn would win an election, and yet Labour haven't polled above the Tories for a long, long time, despite them being in the middle of a giant fuck up. Labour should be 10 points clear. Why aren't we?

There are a few options that could possibly unite the party a little bit more, which is vital if the Tories appoint Boris or similar.

The problem is, and always has been, that from day one the Blairites have wanted him out, they have blatantly ignored a HUGE mandate from the Labour party members. Think about it, you're disaffected, you want to see genuine change, you vote in a guy who espouses those views, fairly, democratically, not by a narrow margin but by a massive one and even then, even fucking then, career politician parasites spend every waking moment niggling at him, finding any excuse to try to get rid of him, constantly refusing to buckle down and work together to strengthen the party.

How could you have faith when that's what you get? Why even bother when they so blatantly don't give a crap what you think, they'll tear the party apart regardless because they want their toy back despite the fact neo-liberal Blairite Labour is 32 and should have left home by now. If they hate the direction so much, quit, all they've done from day one is piss on "democracy" and shown the voter base that it doesn't mean shit what they want if it doesn't correlate with their career projection.

 

[Pliny Harris]

But he was born north of the Watford Gap, Pliny. NORTH! That changes everything!

Maybe it goes deeper, but his is possibly the most common name that comes up when these things are discussed, and it's always followed with him being a war hero. And that this alone is enough to convince those hard nut working class northerners that Labour's on their side again. Plus he's from Nottingham, and that's like halfway between Penzance and Berwick-upon-Tweed.

Too many seem to believe that being a distinguished businessman or army veteran (or their place of origin???) gives you the edge as a politician. Largely lost on me.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Don't even get me started on the slimy wanker Hilary Benn either, walks out meekily today in interviews, shaking anxiously as he plays the victim. "Big bad Jezza fired me.... and I didn't even do nothin' wrong, honest!". He's emblematic of the problem with Labour, people who have niggled away, poking and prodding, then acting like the victim when they finally push it too far and get told to fuck off.

I'm a Liberal Democrat, but just watching this behaviour (and that in the Tories too) just makes me angry and completely disillusioned about politics.