the middle east Thread

[SUTSS]

If only because they don't have the infrastructure for it.

 

[silkyman]

I don't think this is anything like the threat posed by Nazi Germany, in fairness.

No, but still has the potential to be very dangerous. Anyway, it was just a comparison of tactics rather than scale.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

So we go in there and kill a load of ISIS fighters... and then what? We try to nation-build on the cheap again and fail... again?

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

i didn't mean it will be like Nazi Germany, just that if you give them 8-10 years like they did with the Nazi's they can easily warp minds of the young in the area.

and you deal with the aftermath once done, the worry about the aftermath should not be an excuse to let the current continue.

this is abit different to the Iraq War, it'll probably get the backing of most countries and even many of the muslim countries in the area.

 

[SUTSS]

So we go in there and kill a load of ISIS fighters... and then what? We try to nation-build on the cheap again and fail... again?

That's the big one. If we do go in at any time we need to have a plan for the post-war and be willing to put up the money to make it work otherwise we'll be back there in 10 years time.

 

[Mustard]

This is actually a bit of a blunder from ISIS. They had a chance to show that they can negotiate by swapping this man for Jordan's prisoners, a chance to actually gain the tiniest bit of credibility in setting up their own state. Instead they've shown once again to be exactly what people thought, idiotic savages. You can bet no country is going to bother negotiating with them now.

Many of the Jordanian population were also against being part of the coalition, I shouldn't think this will help ISIS in that regard either. They've really pissed off one of the major regional powers. They are stupid.

 

[Tilbury]

The last thing we need to do is go in a put boots on the ground. The airstrikes are having minimal impact considering we don't actually know where they are. A concerted effort is required from the regional powers who need to put the troops in themselves.

 

[slaphead]

No, but still has the potential to be very dangerous. Anyway, it was just a comparison of tactics rather than scale.

I actually do think it bears comparison with Nazi Germany. The parallels are remarkable, the seizing of territory, the murder and repression of peoples who stand in their way, the beginnings of genocide. If this is allowed to continue there will be another mass slaughter, IS are just getting started at the moment, building themselves up for bigger things, just like Hitler in the 30's. Germany then took many chances with it's military build-ups, it's demands for land. It looked to see how far it could push before someone stood against them. For Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland read Iraq, Jordan and Libya. The only way this will stop is for everyone, Britain and the US, Iran, Jordan everyone in the area with an interest in stopping them, to put their differences aside and co-operate before they gain a proper foothold. If that means men on the ground, US and Iranian soldiers fighting shoulder to shoulder, so be it. It has to be done.

The one thing any coalition will have in their favour is resources. IS has no manufacturing means, so any weapons are bought, and they are mainly Soviet. It is time the Russia was pressurized into stopping selling arms to them. Anyone who thinks that is not the case is naïve in the extreme, it is in Russia's interest to have instability in the Middle East. The big buyers in the region, Iran, Iraq and Egypt to name but three, must put pressure on Putin to cease his backing of these terrorists. Cut off their supply and they will wither and die.

I watched an interview last week with Judith Kerr in the Holocaust memorial programs, about the world being vigilant, lest it happen again. Well, it is happening again and at the moment we are doing nothing to stop it. Air strikes are lip service. If we don't learn the lesson of history, we are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Lest it happen again? Has no one heard of North Korea? What do you think is happening there? They don't just wipe out swathes of the population with famine, they do human experiments too in their death camps too. Genocides happen all the time and we generally take little notice. We're only interesting in the Middle East because of oil. And the military hardware ISIS has does not come from the Russians, it comes from us. It's the hardware we sold/gave to the Iraqi army that turned tail and ran, plus loads of other stuff that comes from various interested parties in the region.

 

[slaphead]

Lest it happen again? Has no one heard of North Korea? What do you think is happening there? They don't just wipe out swathes of the population with famine, they do human experiments too in their death camps too. Genocides happen all the time and we generally take little notice. We're only interesting in the Middle East because of oil. And the military hardware ISIS has does not come from the Russians, it comes from us. It's the hardware we sold/gave to the Iraqi army that turned tail and ran, plus loads of other stuff that comes from various interested parties in the region.

Of course I've heard of N. Korea, but they have no expansionist ideas, they really don't have the infrastructure of money to back that. Genocides happens every day in Africa, but it doesn't threat to destabilize the world, so we let it happen.

There is more than the threat to oil in the Middle East for us to be concerned with, IS want radical Islam to rule the world, and that in turn means we aren't (or won't be) safe in this country if their ideals are allowed to be pursued. As for the hardware, look at the kit they are using. AK47's, RPGs and recently Russian ground to air missiles. That's what brought down the Jordanian F-16, you don't do that with a lucky hit from a rifle. The stuff we sold to Iraq has all but been accounted for, and as for 'various interested parties', who do you think supplies them?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

What do you mean "accounted for"? We've known they took US-supplied MANPADS from the get-go.

And there are plenty of groups that want Assad gone, especially inside Turkey. RPGs and AKs are a dime a dozen in the Middle East. Like, the former literally being a household object in places.

 

[slaphead]

What do you mean "accounted for"? We've known they took US-supplied MANPADS from the get-go.

And there are plenty of groups that want Assad gone, especially inside Turkey. RPGs and AKs are a dime a dozen in the Middle East. Like, the former literally being a household object in places.

By accounted for I mean UK supplied kit, what the US may or may not have mislaid I have no idea. They certainly have plenty of customers in the area. But, by and large, our people in the area are being briefed on defence against Soviet made weapons. That info came to me via an RAF navigator who has just returned from the region.

 

[Blitzballer]

RIP Jordanian pilot. Having watched his execution vid I feel physically sick. Absolute medieval stuff.
At least a beheading is somewhat quick, burning to death I can imagine would be excruciatingly painful

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

There is also one other huge factor or fear in the future people need to take into consideration with regards ISIS.

what happens if one of their 'executions' down the line comes from Israel.

They won't p*ss about and moan about it in the papers............that could lead to full scale all out war in the area.

at some point you need to act, although I agree with regards N Korea, but I think that noose is already tightening on them, give afew more years and they lose any last bits of china support they have

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I don't think China gives a shit. The only reason North Korea exists is because China likes having a proxy.

 

[RavenBish]

Watched the video, incredibly weird the way it was shot and edited, in some ways that was the most twisted part of it because it didn't seem real, I didn't feel as if I was watching a man actually being flamed to death, it was more like a scene from a certificate 15 action film.

Shouldn't they really be going after who funds them? Surely there's only a small amount of people with the resources and motives to back these sort of mass barbaric activities.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

They fund themselves. They have shit loads of money from the banks they've seized and the oil they're not supposed to be able to sell (but can). Plus I don't suppose they need much funds. They can roll into anywhere they like and take what they want most likely.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

as a conventional military force i don't think they can be defeated without boots on the ground. as a regional threat they can't be defeated with force alone either, i'd say

 

[RavenBish]

Wonder what the trigger would be for us to go after 'em, we all just waiting around for a terrorist attack?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Don't see why they would invest the time and planning to attack the West. It doesn't further their goals, they're not Al Qaeda. If we go after them it'll probably be if and when they start going into Saudi Arabia. Gotta protect our oil buddies...

 

[Arkan]

Just watched that Jordanian pilot being burned alive. The video I watched was very well put together and had a bit of music on in the background but you could still hear him screaming. Not nice to see.

 

[Freakyteeth]

Jordan's King Abdullah, a trained pilot, could lead revenge airstrikes on Islamic State himself, it has been revealed.

The monarch may personally take part in bombing raids on extremist strongholds on Thursday, according to reports in Arabic-language newspapers.

the king quoted the scene where Eastwood's character announces his plan for retribution.

'Any man I see out there, I'm gonna kill him,' Eastwood's William Munny says in 'Unforgiven.'

'Any son of a bitch takes a shot at me, I'm not only going to kill him, I'm going to kill his wife and all his friends and burn his damn house down.'

'He said there is going to be retribution like ISIS hasn't seen,' Hunter said. 'He's angry. 'They're starting more sorties tomorrow than they've ever had. They're starting tomorrow. And he said, "The only problem we're going to have is running out of fuel and bullets".'

What a LAD

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

And that's why a Middle Eastern problem should be left to the Middle East. ISIS won't stop because we killed a few of them and helped them radicalise more people in the process, but if you go after the families of the leadership? Hmmm...

 

[pontoonlew]

What do you mean "accounted for"? We've known they took US-supplied MANPADS from the get-go.

And there are plenty of groups that want Assad gone, especially inside Turkey. RPGs and AKs are a dime a dozen in the Middle East. Like, the former literally being a household object in places.

ISIS do not have access to MANPADS.

 

[Freakyteeth]

Also his bint is a 10. Top work Abdullah.

 

[Stagat]

AbdulLAD

 

[RavenBish]

Aye she's great. Can see why he's the first King of Jordan to only have one wife.

 

[Dave-Vale]

I don't know why anybody would want more than 1 wife. Imagine the nagging and hassle that would be?

 

[SUTSS]

Looks like we're edging closer to American boots on the ground.

 

[Womble98]

Looks like we're edging closer to American boots on the ground.

Yep. For those confused, Obama sent Congress a "draft war authorisation bill"

Main points

• The White House requests authority to wage battle against ISIS and "associated forces" with no geographic limitations and a limited timeline of 3 years
  
  
• Obama faces more resistance from Democrats than from Republicans, the latter of whom mostly reacted with "grudging acceptance"
  
  
• Main concern of democrats is that the vague language (see point 1) will pull us into another open-ended war
  

Concerns

1. Who are "associated forces"? Could be anyone.
2. No geographic limitations- Could be anyone anywhere.

In order for a war to be successful, surely you need a definitive timeframe to achieve it in and point where you can say, our job is done.

With IS though, that probably isn't possible, hence the concerns and problems.

What I believe should happen if troops must go in, is that they shouldn't be an invasion force. It should be a highly mobile but small group of soldiers, with a lot of air support, able to strike certain locations, inflict heavy casualties on insurgents, in targeted and calculated small raids.That way we won't get bogged down. Let the Arab countries and groups i.e. Peshmerga, Syrian forces and Iraqi forces, fight IS to control territory, let us assist them by weakening IS wherever we can.