the middle east Thread

[silkyman]

FFS.. Really?

Does he want to talk maths? Conditions just right in any spot on the planet, once, over a period of millions of years. What are the odds now?

Let's get anthropic on the fuckers ass. Throw in every star and planet that has ever and will ever exist. What are the chances now?

Because if, in the infinity of space and time, the conditions were only right ONCE, EVER.... Then 'hi'. That's us.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

IIRC he was talking more about the laws of physics, the strength of gravity, the speed of light etc. But even then, you can't reason something backwards like that. It would be like me dealing out an entire pack of cards, calculating that the chances of me dealing them out in that specific order were infinitesimally small, and therefore concluding that it didn't happen. It's ridiculous.

 

[merseyboyred]

Rare earth hypothesis?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

no

 

[Lukey]

http://news.sky.com/story/1443748/turkey-foreign-spy-detained-over-uk-girls

Oooooo this sounds interesting, wonder which Coalition country they are from.

 

[sl1k]

SUTSS Late response on my part, but better late than never

I agree that he tries to skew the overall outlook by using the figures, however it doesn't change the disproportionate efforts put in by governments to sell us these 'dangers'. Poorer areas of the world do indeed feel the brunt of terrorism, however that's not the way that it gets packaged up for the public. There is a constant emphasis on our values and way of life being under threat. Usually you expect a noticable effort from government to try to keep the populas calm but vigilant, together rather than divided. All we got, really, was more reasons to be fearful. This is a very deliberate tactic.

Another thing that loads of people are either unaware of or just conveniently choose to ignore, is that Islamism was the West's tool of choice to achieve their own geo political agendas during the world wars i.e. breaking up the Ottoman Empire by propping up extreme Arab nationalists. These Wahhabi nutters that sit around preaching are very well supported, very well trained and very well armed through the Western proxy that is the dictatorship of Saudi Arabia. Infact, these parasites have had ties with the House of Saud for more than 250 years. 15/19 of the 9/11 hijackers were citizens of Saudi. Yet they are an ally of the West? Just doesn't add up if you're following the narrative of our media.

There are crazy fundementalists no matter what area of society or demographic you look at, but the specific Islamist problem we face today is one that has roots off of modern history and with modern political agendas. We cannot solve a problem without knowing the full extent of it, and it has alot more to it than dudes reading a book, watching a youtube video then jetting off to warzones. There are many, many entities at work far more closer to home.



Edit: I'd also like to add that so long as oil is the primary source of energy, the global dynamics will remain the same. The US will keep chummy with the Sauds, who're also playing their own game of sunni vs shia in the region. The Russians have their interests with the shia side. "Muslims" will continue killing each other for a long, long time.

 

[SUTSS]

SUTSS Late response on my part, but better late than never

I agree that he tries to skew the overall outlook by using the figures, however it doesn't change the disproportionate efforts put in by governments to sell us these 'dangers'. Poorer areas of the world do indeed feel the brunt of terrorism, however that's not the way that it gets packaged up for the public. There is a constant emphasis on our values and way of life being under threat. Usually you expect a noticable effort from government to try to keep the populas calm but vigilant, together rather than divided. All we got, really, was more reasons to be fearful. This is a very deliberate tactic.

Another thing that loads of people are either unaware of or just conveniently choose to ignore, is that Islamism was the West's tool of choice to achieve their own geo political agendas during the world wars i.e. breaking up the Ottoman Empire by propping up extreme Arab nationalists. These Wahhabi nutters that sit around preaching are very well supported, very well trained and very well armed through the Western proxy that is the dictatorship of Saudi Arabia. Infact, these parasites have had ties with the House of Saud for more than 250 years. 15/19 of the 9/11 hijackers were citizens of Saudi. Yet they are an ally of the West? Just doesn't add up if you're following the narrative of our media.

There are crazy fundementalists no matter what area of society or demographic you look at, but the specific Islamist problem we face today is one that has roots off of modern history and with modern political agendas. We cannot solve a problem without knowing the full extent of it, and it has alot more to it than dudes reading a book, watching a youtube video then jetting off to warzones. There are many, many entities at work far more closer to home.



Edit: I'd also like to add that so long as oil is the primary source of energy, the global dynamics will remain the same. The US will keep chummy with the Sauds, who're also playing their own game of sunni vs shia in the region. The Russians have their interests with the shia side. "Muslims" will continue killing each other for a long, long time.

The problem of course is that if you use misleading figures to sell your argument then why should I listen to the rest of the argument?

Can we not say the two things without one cancelling the other out. Islamism is a global threat and the media oversimplifies it and loves a muslim based scare story? Both are true but so often we see people try to excuse one with the other.

I wrote a pretty long post on the forum-that-shall-not-be-named before it was cruelly taken from us about the origins of Wahhabism. It obviously goes back further than the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. No one forced the Ottoman Empire to join the first world war either, although once they had Britain and France were carving up their lands between them before they had been defeated.

Saudi Arabia is the elephant in the room when it comes to talking about he war on terror. It's quite obvious that the a large part of the funding for these groups comes via Saudi but this obviously can't be said at the highest levels for political reasons.

And as you say it isn't just the west that are involved here, Russia has long standing alliances in the middle east and to a growing extent China is getting involved as well.

I think the book does matter though. In so much as it shapes the extremism. If it was radical Christianity instead of radical Islam it would be different because the book is different.

I also think there is an issue here with a lack of a liberal argument against the extreme tenants of Islam. I was a Christian until I was about 17 and I had stumbled across some pretty radical sites (anti-abortion, anti-gay, creationist nonsense) and a lot of their arguments seemed to make sense. There were a couple of bits that didn't quite sit well with me and I investigated these and found the extensive work of people like Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett etc. and that drew me away from it. I don't think that it would have been as easy to find these sort of sources had I been coming from Islam. In fact when people try and make these arguments they get shouted down as Islamophobes, you can't even suggest that they may be something insidious in the texts without this happening (Affleck on Maher being a prime example) but if you said the same thing about Christianity then the same people would be agreeing with you.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

1. 
   BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 1h1 hour ago
   Islamic State militants say they were behind suicide bomb attacks in Yemen's capital Sanaa http://bbc.in/1FJcB00
   
   BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 38m38 minutes ago
2. Death toll rises to at least 126 in suicide bomb attacks on 2 mosques in Yemen's capital, reports say http://bbc.in/1FJcB00
   

 

[sl1k]

SUTSS

"Can we not say the two things without one cancelling the other out. Islamism is a global threat and the media oversimplifies it and loves a muslim based scare story? Both are true but so often we see people try to excuse one with the other."

I think that one of the biggest problems we face is the lack of knowledge surrounding the problem, for Muslims and non Muslims alike. For example, the fact that we even use the word Islamism when referring to these terror organisation implies that most - if not all - have/utilise the same motivation, the same objectives and fight for the same universal cause. This is a fallacy created by the media to divert attention away from what's happening politically in the regions the terrorists operate. ISIS, Al-Nusra and Al-Qaeda for example are all fundementally different in why they operate. The recruitment side of terrorism does use words like 'jihad' and cherry picked uncontextualized verses of the Quran but that's where most of the "Islam" aspects end. For one reason or another this isn't filtering through to foreigners who run off to fight for them, for many of whom the realisation comes too late to turn back.

The raw Quranic texts can facilitate radicalisation, but it's ultimately the extremist preachers who make it so by teaching and spreading their own distorted versions of it in their broken communities. Consider also that they very particularly target the socially, economically and politically disenfranchised, that's a very potent recipe for disaster.

In regards to your final point, I think it's more that there's a serious lack of leadership amongst Muslims and it's a problem we as a community have created. Although people like me are the majority, on a local level we have very few leaders who've the balls to speak/conversate anything about Islam that doesn't go with the status quo publicly because they fear getting it 'wrong' at some point and being stigmatised for it by the community. It's become so deeply embedded in our culture that it has literally stunted the progress of Islam coming into modern 21st century society IMO.

 

[SUTSS]

SUTSS

"Can we not say the two things without one cancelling the other out. Islamism is a global threat and the media oversimplifies it and loves a muslim based scare story? Both are true but so often we see people try to excuse one with the other."

I think that one of the biggest problems we face is the lack of knowledge surrounding the problem, for Muslims and non Muslims alike. For example, the fact that we even use the word Islamism when referring to these terror organisation implies that most - if not all - have/utilise the same motivation, the same objectives and fight for the same universal cause. This is a fallacy created by the media to divert attention away from what's happening politically in the regions the terrorists operate. ISIS, Al-Nusra and Al-Qaeda for example are all fundementally different in why they operate. The recruitment side of terrorism does use words like 'jihad' and cherry picked uncontextualized verses of the Quran but that's where most of the "Islam" aspects end. For one reason or another this isn't filtering through to foreigners who run off to fight for them, for many of whom the realisation comes too late to turn back.

The raw Quranic texts can facilitate radicalisation, but it's ultimately the extremist preachers who make it so by teaching and spreading their own distorted versions of it in their broken communities. Consider also that they very particularly target the socially, economically and politically disenfranchised, that's a very potent recipe for disaster.

In regards to your final point, I think it's more that there's a serious lack of leadership amongst Muslims and it's a problem we as a community have created. Although people like me are the majority, on a local level we have very few leaders who've the balls to speak/conversate anything about Islam that doesn't go with the status quo publicly because they fear getting it 'wrong' at some point and being stigmatised for it by the community. It's become so deeply embedded in our culture that it has literally stunted the progress of Islam coming into modern 21st century society IMO.

I think we agree on most things here.

I think it is only natural that things as complicated as this get simplified down in the media because they are trying to get the layman to understand (which doesn't always go well). I also agree that umbrella terms like Islamism can sometimes not give a true picture but alas the English language doesn't have another way of describing it.

I think you missed my point there. Of course it is the radical preachers that spread the message but if they were radical Christian preachers the message would be different. All radical religion is an issue but not all radical religion is the same. For example if we were talking about attacks on abortion clinics then we would be talking about Christians because, and correct me if I'm wrong here, in Islam the foetus becomes a living soul after four months.

I think we essentially mean the same thing with the last point. I would like to see a more secular 'attack' on radical Islam and it's teachings but I think that that would be greatly facilitated by liberal muslim leaders making themselves heard in the community. There different sides of the same sword as it were.

 

[sl1k]

I think you missed my point there. Of course it is the radical preachers that spread the message but if they were radical Christian preachers the message would be different. All radical religion is an issue but not all radical religion is the same. For example if we were talking about attacks on abortion clinics then we would be talking about Christians because, and correct me if I'm wrong here, in Islam the foetus becomes a living soul after four months.

You are indeed correct about the foetus and the soul in Islam mate. I get what you mean by the book shaping the nature of the extremism.

We're mostly in agreement, which is great.

Trying to engineer a similar consensus in broader society is going to be a long process, and I fear we just don't have that kind of time before things spiral down the shitter. Too much disinformation from and about both sides. Sad and scary thought tbh.

 

[pontoonlew]

Forgive the source, but after blaming everybody else for his daughters trip to Syria, look at what we have here.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...just-feet-Lee-Rigby-s-killer-Muslim-demo.html

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Typical Chelsea supporters causing shit again.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Hey, leave the bear out of this

 

[SUTSS]

Some reports that al-Baghdadi is dead

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

so a lil update. isis doing well in aleppo governorate, they're looking to cut off the rebels/kurds route of supply which would leave aleppo itself seriously exposed. i always figured if aleppo fell assad would fuck off to sunny crimea/tehran so that'd be interesting. the syrian government's tactics so far have been to bomb the rebels so isis can move forward against the rebel coalition. gonna bite them in the ass though. isis ain't doing well in gire sipe though currently hemmed in between kurds from kobane and kurds from serekaniye. gire sipe is important cause A it's a border and B there's a motorway running straight from there to isis' capital raqqah. if the kurds take gire sipi they're gonna be under a lot of pressure from the rebels to show their cards and join in on a coalition attack on raqqah. which would be a dodgy move for the kurds as there are still a great deal of government enclaves in kurdish territory, they've had a 'let's ignore each other' kinda deal but if the kurds push out of ostensibly kurdish territory and move with the rebels on raqqah... it's a pretty big show of cards and they and the state will probably end up in conflict.

that's the same reason the kobane kurds ain't supporting the defence in aleppo that'd put them in conflict with the state bombing runs on rebel positions, they'd be going through sorta-non-kurdish territory and they have a pretty tricky river crossing under fire. also going back to kobane it's kinda funny how that turned around. i remember some yank politician saying it was unimportant but wtf they completely reversed isis' offensive in kobane governorate, they're looking to possibly move on to raqqah from the border they've almost secured and the turkish government's position on kobane is one of the main reasons HDP (a super awesome feminist, leftist, lgbt kurdish party) won like 12% of the vote in today's elections! unimportant my ass.

in good rebel news the euphrates volcano force (best name for a coalition ever) are kicking ass. after taking idlib they've pretty much taken jisr shughur which puts them dead fucking close to latakia on the coast. i'd have put money on damascus falling before latakia as the coast is solidly alawite. the writing's definitely on the wall for him, also isis ain't gonna last either but that's gonna take a helluva lot longer. i'm worried bout al-nusra though. they're probably the most powerful, certainly the most respected and feared, of the rebels. i remember an fsa leader referring to them as the rebels 'special forces'. they are still al qaeda though and they're doing fucking good for themselves. if it's a clusterfuck now it's gonna get so much worse when assad leaves, there begins a secession crisis and al-nusra go jihad on everyone's ass. maybe they'll MAD themselves with isis though which would be cool.

 

[mnb089mnb]

https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/614407789121810432

https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/614408121243582464

 

[NiallQuinnDiscoPants]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/attack-tourist-hotel-tunisia-reports-113143523.html#E1CLUqw

 

[BlueBee]

It's just a minority.

 

[spireite]

How horrible

 

[NiallQuinnDiscoPants]

I think it would be foolish to plan any holidays to Tunisia or Egypt. They look like the current strongest areas for ISIS.

 

[spireite]

This is the BBC news page right now...

What's going on?! shits cray

 

[The Southbank]

https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/614407789121810432

https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/614408121243582464

Irrelevant, thoughtless tweets which completely miss the point. The ISIS threat is overestimated, they don't number anything more than a few thousand in reality.

 

[NiallQuinnDiscoPants]

This is the BBC news page right now...

What's going on?! shits cray

So Blatter hasn't resigned?

 

[spireite]

So Blatter hasn't resigned?

teflon sepp

 

[Dave-Vale]

Fuck ISIS.

Hate that this is going to be used as ammo for even more mindless abuse of real Islam. The Britain First brigade are out in force.

 

[TheMinsterman]

It's just a minority.

Yes, BlueBee, it is still just a minority, if the entire weight of Islam really wanted you dead we'd be truly fucked when a billion people attack us.

It's not hard to appreciate and accept it's a minority of Muslims whilst appreciating it's a severe problem, even though so many people seem incapable of this.

 

[Techno Natch]

The thing us you will never hear people like blue bee talking about Zach Davies etc. Best ignored.

 

[Freakyteeth]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...barricades-to-snare-lorries-bound-for-UK.html

Bet there's some lovely individuals just across the channel waiting to cross, law of averages with the number trying to get out of North Africa and the Levant. I sympathise with the genuine asylum seekers but they're safe in Italy/France, continuing on to the UK is evidence of economic migration not genuine asylum seeking. However, Call me Dave is shitting himself, Theresa May is using it as an excuse to expand the SS err give GCHQ further access to my porn browsing history, Milibae is at home sitting in the dark getting pissed, Ron Paul is tightening the blast door on his underground bunker screaming he warned us it was happening years ago, The frogs are shrugging their shoulders and people in online news comment sections are hysterically calling for 22 Para to drop in and set up sniper nests in St Malo and Folkestone like its fucking Dunkirk.

A hypothetical Brexit would be interesting as the UK border would get pushed back to the UK mainland rather than be stationed as it currently is in Calais.

Dover/Folkestone would be like WW3 with the fencing and containment areas.

As for Armed Forces getting involved, 25 Border squadron - Johnny Foreigner Battalion has a nice ring to it. Our Nige (peace be upon him) could be the CO. JoeJoeJoeJoe could be head of recruitment.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Without wanting to be trite, the attack in France can only be described as a pitiful failure. Essentially they murdered one man and then tried to blow up a gas works, didn't succeed and were killed and arrested. The Tunisia events are chilling, incredibly cynical attack but one to be expected more. Certainly would advise against going to this area of the world as it stands. I think military action is inevitable against IS at some point, likewise I think punitive measures across Europe will be increased.