The Van Gaal Era: Preformance Checks/Kpis

[Jarv]

Oh man we all expect this kind of nonsense from the likes of Dessy but I really expect a more considered opinion from you .

I just can't for the life of me why people keep referring back to Moyes as if he was hard done by and I keep seeing how Moyes never got the backing Van Gaal had. Well for starters he spent 70 million on two players whilst Van Gaal has spent 150 million on five permanent deals (not including Valdes or Falcao for obvious reasons)

That Van Gaal actually got some deals done despite having much less time with the squad whereas Moyes spent all summer faffing about trying to get someone everyone new we had no chance of buying looks far worse on Moyes to me. The pursuit of Fabregas, overpaying the release clause on Fellaini and the Herrera saga all show he would have been backed if not for his own incompetence. Not to mention the fact that of all our recent forays into the market Mata was by far the most illogical and just downright unnecessary.

Van Gaal as also had to deal with the forced departures of Giggs, Evra and Vidic whilst selling or loaning out other members of the squad. Moyes had perfect stability when he came here. Of course it's going to be difficult when you are changing a style of play and incorporating 5 or so players into the first team. That our best run this year came when all the new signings were out says as much.

That Moyes changed very little tactically or in terms of personnel whilst dragging us down to 7th says everything about his unsuitability for the job. What's more we may be on the same amount of wins but we have more points than last year, are higher in the table and aren't being swatted away by any team above mid table with ease.

All that said is not really a defense of Van Gaal who I'm disappointed with.

I'm sick Of Falcao and RVP starting whenever fit.
I'm sick of Rooney in midfield
I'm sick of Herrera not starting.
I'm sick of the dull possession football leading nowhere.
I'm sick of Di Maria being played anywhere but where he proved world class for real.

none of that compares to how sick I was of that coward making excuses for his ineptitude whilst saying we should 'aspire to be like city' or 'Liverpool are favourites' at OT. No matter what Van Gaal does Moyes was the most justified sacking in the history of everything everywhere.

I don't was us to get rid of Van Gaal, top 4 or not. There are mitigating factors but more importantly he's actually managing and doing what he believes rather than dithering and then blaming everyone but himself. If we get rid we are back to square one. Lets see how he does with a full pre season and time to really shape the squad in his image. If next year is as bad then his time will have run out.

Pretty much sums things up for me. Not sure who Herrera slept with to be so out of favour. I'm also sick of how slow we are. How can we break teams down if every time we get the ball we let them get back and in position every single time.

I'd like to see Falcao and Rooney start a few games together with Wilson from the bench and RVP playing with the reserves or what ever they're called this season. RVP has had what 3 decent games in 1 and 2/3 seasons and one of those was for Holland in the world cup

One thing in Falcao's favour over RVP is he at least looks to move a little where RVP does nothing for 80 mins then hits his 2 chances he gets at the keeper.

 

[G-Dragon]

United to start playing Wilson more, Falcao RVP and Rooney aren't getting any younger. Who knows maybe he will be another Harry Kane?

 

[Stevencc]

Rooney's hairline says he is getting younger mate.

 

[SALTIRE]

Do Utd fans still think Falcao and RVP will be there next season? Both are looking way past it (unfortunately in the case of the Colombian who was a sensational striker in his time).

 

[Stevencc]

I imagine Van Persie will be still be on the books, hopefully as a backup (with a reduced wage to reflect that) barring a huge upturn in form. Falcao has done nothing to earn a place here next season though and I can't see many big clubs trying to sign him either.

 

[Destruction]

My spidey senses are tingling, has Scruff been taking my name in vain again?

I hope he's not still upset that Moyesey main man Juan Mata has been United's best performer this year over van Gaal's piss poor business. It's time to move on cha, there is no point looking back...

 

[thespus]

Do Utd fans still think Falcao and RVP will be there next season? Both are looking way past it (unfortunately in the case of the Colombian who was a sensational striker in his time).

They were both sensational strikers in their time. If RvP wasn't such a crock for the better part of a decade, he'd be considered among the all-time great Premier League strikers. I have my grudges against the pillock, but he was unplayable for the 2 1/2 seasons injuries were behind him. He's lost all his pace and mobility now—just stands around waiting for United to make the chances for him (which this current Van Gaal side seems incapable of). His ability to drop deep, spot a pass, and drag defenders out of position were incredible. In terms of all around contribution, I'd pick peak RvP over peak Falcao.

 

[SALTIRE]

Even Scholes is saying they are 'miserable' under LVG!
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/feb/13/manchester-united-van-gaal-scholes

 

[G.B]

Very strange how much more grief Moyes got in comparison. Has anyone booked the protest plane for LVG yet?

 

[Benji]

Very strange how much more grief Moyes got in comparison. Has anyone booked the protest plane for LVG yet?

They spent all their Van Gaal protest plane money on trying to convince Ronaldo to come back.

 

[Jarv]

i think there's definitely a confidence issue with not wanting to give the ball away because they're all in the knowledge the defence is a little bit poo. Apart from De gea. Jury's still out on Rojo but the rest are all pretty certain of at least one ricket a game.

 

[G.B]

Don't let Scruffers see you talk about "the finest ball playing centre back in England" like that mate.

 

[Jarv]

Don't let Scruffers see you talk about "the finest ball playing centre back in England" like that mate.

Who's that then? If i were going to pick anyone to partner Rojo it would be Mcnair, then Smalling, then Jones then Caarrick, then Fletcher (back on loan from West Brom) then Blackett, then RVP then maybe Evans if Tea lady ethel wasn't avaialble

 

[Nilsson]

Don't agree with all of this but thought it was a good read nonetheless: Ferguson mess undermines both, but van Gaal is no Moyes

This snippet sums up my thoughts well:

Compared to Moyes, van Gaal’s shortcomings have been small, even if he does run his mouth in his press conferences. Some of what he says would have brought huge laughter and mocking had Moyes said it, but that’s kind of the point. Management is often a confidence trick, and van Gaal has to pull it off for as long as it takes for him to improve the side. With a résumé that includes Champions League, La Liga, and Bundesliga winners medals, there are few reasons to think he won’t succeed.

Moyes had no such track record, nor did he have a charisma that could manipulate people’s outlook. Van Gaal, meanwhile, has seized upon his executives’ weaknesses. He has been more than happy to bawl out those who suggest substandard transfer targets, and while he might spout a decent amount of his own bullshit in the media, that doesn’t mean he isn’t prepared to show a healthy contempt when he smells it coming out of someone else’s mouth.

And...

United fans who care about the club as much as they do the side, and who know as much if not more than the many uppity journalists who cover the team, realize why van Gaal is not in trouble yet. He was brought in to clear up the mess left by his predecessor, but it isn’t entirely Moyes’s mess. The superficial discontent of the squad, yes, that was his fault, but the bereft team full of underwhelming talent and fading players? That’s on Woodward, David Gill, Ferguson and the Glazer family. It is their designs that have supported millions of pounds exiting in interest and cash gifts.

That mess did much more harm than Moyes’s tiny interregnum. Van Gaal has to sort it out. With the capital, charisma and track record to do so, there’s no point in acting as if he and Moyes are the same.

 

[G.B]

Who's that then? If i were going to pick anyone to partner Rojo it would be Mcnair, then Smalling, then Jones then Caarrick, then Fletcher (back on loan from West Brom) then Blackett, then RVP then maybe Evans if Tea lady ethel wasn't avaialble

Jonny Evans, believe it or not

 

[smat]

Hate Netherton, and all of this generation of social media football journalists. John Brewin, Nick Miller, James Dall, Charlie McNicholas and James fucking Maw. Such WANKERS.

Ps what's dragging United through these bad perfomances? The fact that they've got an expensive squad full of good players? That's not going to change, so they'll be fine. The remit was to get back into the Champions League, and they're on course to do that. It might not be pretty to watch but Van Gaal is basically doing his job fine.

 

[Spear]

Crisis Club update..........

 

[Destruction]

Crisis Club update..........

Great stuff cha, I fancy Louy is the man to wrap up 3rd spot for the foreseeable future.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Great stuff cha, I fancy Louy is the man to wrap up 3rd spot for the foreseeable future.

haha

 

[Mr. Scruff]

Very strange how much more grief Moyes got in comparison. Has anyone booked the protest plane for LVG yet?

If you are going to keep posting this kind of nonsense you might want to engage with the reply instead of pretending you were fishing.

In what world did Moyes receive more criticism? Van Gaal constantly has his team selections and formations questioned on here, on man utd forums and anywhere you dare to look. He even has 4-4-2 chanted at him by the fans at Old Trafford.The media have been happy enough to continually mention his spending and how performances should be better neglecting to mention how much of a change has been made these last 6 months.

In comparison the OT crowd never once chanted anything at Moyes and were loyal to the end. The media narrative right up until his last game was that he needed more time and money despite the fact he got more time than any other manager would have got any other top club. Even on here people didnt turn on him until around this time now with the ridiculous comments he made plus the abject performances at Fulham and then to City and Liverpool

Moyes got an incredibly easy ride from both the press and fans and the plane stunt although misguided was a reaction to that. It was basically a way of getting out some criticism when the media and Old Trafford out of loyalty to Ferguson wouldn't.


As for Evans at the time he was playing excellently as most on here recognized. He always had a mistake in him but he was largely solid and was right there among the better ball playing defenders in the league

A combination of injuries and lack of confidence has pretty much destroyed him and this season he has been a complete disaster, truly dreadful. It happens to players.

Keeping bringing stuff up from the past is pretty much the lowest form of debate and just shows an inability to argue the point. So yea keep bringing that up if you like but I wont be trawling up your hilarious opinion that Krul is miles better than De Gea every time De Gea has a worldie.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You're losing the plot Scruff if you think LVG isn't having an easier time than Moyes. By this point of the season last year we were all debating whether Moyes would be sacked before the summer or given an extra season, and within a month or two in the job we were all joking about how awful an appointment he was. LVG has had a much longer honeymoon period.

 

[Mr. Scruff]

That's just not true. Yes there was an element of piss taking but that was from rivals and mainly confined to forums and social networks. Moyes got a much easier ride from the media and the fans. There are also plenty of people on red cafe who want him sacked and some on here have said he should go if we don't get top 4

Of course more people have faith Van Gaal will eventually turn it around but thats not favouritism or getting more slack. He is simply doing a better job in more difficult circumstances and has a history of success to back him up.

 

[Steady]

Scruff, sorry mate, but that's a load of bollocks. Moyes was given a torrid time by fans, media and rivals alike. Van Gaal hasn't had it easy (nor has he deserved to), but Moyes was treated far, far worse.

 

[silkyman]

There was also a strange level of awe from the UK press about him. Witness the mass hysteria about him winning a world cup game after switching keepers for the shootout.

Even the British sporting press couldn't flip flop that fast on the guy they were fêting as the second coming a few months back.

 

[Mr. Scruff]

Again not true. He was backed by the fans in the stadium to the hilt and the media were hugely sympathetic to him. I was pretty much the first to turn on here and it wasn't till well after Christmas . He got it so much easier because he was British 'hardworking and decent'

 

[silkyman]

British managers do tend to get an easier ride by the British press

 

[Mr. Scruff]

The notion that he got a difficult time is just ludicrous.

He took a team of champions to 7th whist spending 70 million and was embarrassing in just about every big game we had yet a large number of people in the press and online felt he deserved more time whilst at the stadium not once did the home fans turn on him .

Lets compare that to AVB who was pretty much hounded out of Spurs after losing their best player and having to completely change the team whilst having no control on transfers. The criticism of him was far more vicious and was sacked far quicker after achieving far more for his club

In fact sticking with the Spurs theme Sherwood was still widely ridiculed as not being good enough despite him taking Spurs above Moyes Man Utd whilst in his short time in charge , with an inferior squad I might add.

Or even Pochetino who one Spurs fan on TFF wanted out in October and there were plenty of murmering s in the press on his struggles before the recent upturn.

That's just one club. I shouldnt need to mention Pardew at Newcastle or Allarydyce at west ham, both have done far better jobs relatively than Moyes did. Managers, even successful ones have their decisions questioned and failures ridiculed every day. The idea Moyes was badly treated is a falacy in comparison with just about any manager thats managed in the modern game , Van Gaal is no exception to that.

 

[Destruction]

That's just not true. Yes there was an element of piss taking but that was from rivals and mainly confined to forums and social networks. Moyes got a much easier ride from the media and the fans. There are also plenty of people on red cafe who want him sacked and some on here have said he should go if we don't get top 4

Of course more people have faith Van Gaal will eventually turn it around but thats not favouritism or getting more slack. He is simply doing a better job in more difficult circumstances and has a history of success to back him up.

I don't wish to play the China card out of turn but you are not in the position to tell all of us on here in regards to this.

It's a none debate, Moyes was battered from all corners very early on. van Gaal hasn't had close to the same abuse or ridicule.

 

[Steady]

I can't accept that saying Moyes had a difficult time at Manchester United is "ludicrous". I can't understand that thought process at all. He had his supporters, but they were minimal. As for people criticising him, such calls came from the press, the fans (naive to think it didn't) and online.

First press conference

Even from the start, Moyes had his detractors. Van Gaal's first press conference as manager was laughable with everyone fawning over him. Every word was met with "look how brave he is, this is just what we need", and "THIS is a Manchester United manager". Before they'd even kicked a ball under van Gaal, people were crowning him as the second coming of Ferguson. It was frankly pathetic.

Compare that to how Moyes was received, and you see that they didn't even start on an equal footing, never mind enjoy a similar reception throughout their respective reigns. This review of Moyes' first press conference from The Guardian concludes with "could it show Ferguson's power over Moyes?", completely undermining him. The Daily Mirror got in on the act as well, basically casting aside Moyes' reign as little more than an afterthought ("the uninspiring and frankly forgettable David Moyes regime can once and for all be cast into the history books"), while saying United fans should be "very excited" about the "new era" under LVG. There was no such fanfare, no such sycophantic flattery for Moyes, but LVG was afforded it instantly.

Lest we forget the complete revisionism that's occurred over Moyes' press image. LVG has completely mastered it (although that's waivered plenty in recent weeks), but Moyes always struggled somewhat with the media side of things. However, lines such as "I am taking over the Champions and Manchester United are always interested in the best players available" and "When you are at Manchester United, my thinking is that you have to go for everything, you attempt to win everything." These kind of lines were completely forgotten, because many had already decided Moyes 'wasn't a Manchester United manager'.

The fans

The idea that Moyes was backed by the United fans is just plain wrong. Far be it from anyone to use Redcafe as the yardstick for the United fanbase, but seeing as you used them, here goes. This thread from September 2013 criticises Moyes six PL games into his tenure, using that ever-so-boring cliche of him 'not being a United manager'. After six games of the 2013/14 season United had seven point from six games, with a WDL record of 2-1-3. LVG had eight points from his opening six PL games with a WDL record of 2-2-2; where were the fans calling for his sacking?

Also, I've got to question why you've brushed over one of the most infamous showings of fan disapproval under Moyes, that being that plane banner. Some fans may have booed the plane and chanted in support of Moyes in their reply, but the fact remains that Manchester United fans paid money to call for Moyes to be sacked. That seems to be a pretty substantial thing to ignore when claiming United fans were in full support of him.

Van Gaal has been openly criticised by a few fans at United games this season, and rightfully so. However, it's wrong to claim Moyes wasn't afforded similar treatment. I can't remember off the top of my head (nor do I particularly care to), but a bit of research tells me United were booed off in the 1-0 defeat to Newcastle and the FA Cup loss to Swansea at the very least. Many fans are far worse with their managers when struggling, granted, but try not to pretend United fans backed Moyes to the hilt. There were murmurings of discontent well before he was sacked.

Also, you felt that a lot of the backing Moyes received from fans was false. Rather than supporting Moyes, a lot of United fans seemed to become obsessed with this idea of 'supporting their manager'. 'We're not a sacking club' and all that bollocks. As oppose to supporting Moyes himself, it often appeared to simply be fans clamouring to appear like super-fans.

The press

I've already briefly touched on it, but Moyes was not given an easy time by the press. You felt "a large number" in the press felt he "deserved more time" (after being sacked eight months into a six-year contract; a novel idea). That was hardly the blanket consensus though, was it? The worst flak LVG's come under from the press has been for his style of play (which you have to admit is completely understandable criticism. There's barely a difference than from under Moyes despite this 'world-class' array of attacking talent). For Moyes, it was the constant comparison to Ferguson, the regular recitals of the numerous negative records he had broken, the weekly articles about the amount of crosses or long balls played during the last match, or even who should replace him. Moyes was slaughtered in the press by most, but did have his supporters - very much an inverse of his standing with the fans. However, for LVG there are just murmurings of discontent on both sides, with him generally being backed as someone who, long-term, is the best option. Where was the long-term thinking when Moyes was in charge?

Also, I find it strange that you'd ignore the Falcao signing when talking about LVG's business. Fair enough, it's difficult to include him when talking about expenditure and all that bollocks 'cause we don't know how much he actually cost. But when you criticise the admittedly stupid and frivolous Mata signing (I can't remember your wording, it was something like the most needless signing in the history of the club or something?), Falcao's loan has to come into the equation. LVG has taken it upon himself to move your most consistent striker into midfield to accommodate him and one of his favourites in RVP, despite the fact that he isn't even performing that well. Moyes was stupid and senseless in his purchase of Mata, but was it not just flexing his muscles to a similar extent to that of LVG buying Falcao? Both needless, both harmful to the squad, neither of which you can ignore while criticising the other.

I've alluded to this previously as well, but LVG's crown is slipping in terms of his press interviews. When he freely admits, mid-February, that he still doesn't know his best side, does that not get alarm bells ringing? Moyes was crucified for chopping and changing and rarely sticking with one side, I've barely seen anything criticising LVG for that. And if Moyes started claiming referee conspiracies after drawing with a League Two side, he'd have been fired there and then.

Just to clarify, I'm not against van Gaal. I don't think he's the best for United long-term, but I think he's doing an okay job and is doing better than Moyes. But put it into context. Moyes was working under the proviso of a six-year contract; had he known his job would come under threat after less than a year I imagine he'd have managed completely differently. Van Gaal is doing well short-term, but do you feel he's a long-term option, Scruff?

I just think Moyes wasn't afforded long enough in charge, and was on a hiding to nothing from the start for many. The circumstances he was working under were so different to the ones van Gaal is under currently, and that should be reflected when remembering Moyes' reign, but it rarely ever is.

 

[SALTIRE]

For you Spear - a fan of Man Utd speaking on another forum

'As a fan of united (that's Man Utd-but don't have to say that) of 47 yrs standing, i am now mature enough to say, Liverpool under Rogers are bloody great to watch. He is such a good manager. If only LVG and rogers could do a job swap.
What's sad about Liverpool is that they do not have enough money. And money matters! If e.g., they could have a Di Maria or a Suarez (see what I've done there) in the team to add the missing top level of flair, they'd be really going places.
As it is they will probably get top 4 and be a top team - but they ain't gonna rival Chelsea and City.
It's reflective of the way our society is. Can the playing field ever be levelled?'