The Van Gaal Era: Preformance Checks/Kpis

[G-Dragon]

I am just waiting for the Van Gaal Banner.

 

[IanH]

That's a good post Steady, as per usual. I have one extra section to add.

The Players
Crowds, the media and social networking can be as positive or negative as they want, but in all honesty are pretty trivial if the dressing room is fully supportive of what the manager is doing / trying to do. David Moyes seemingly never had that, and I think the single biggest mistake (and surely regret) that he made was to replace the back room staff and remove the possibility of a smoother transition and also created a us vs them mentality in some of the senior players, especially after the perfect scapegoat was signed in Fellaini.

Ryan Giggs emerged as an absolute snake in the grass, Ferdinand dealt with being dropped for playing reasons like a spoilt child, Wilfried Zaha must have just been a ball-ache to manage with the shagging and non-training reports, and Van Persie clearly didn't want him to be there (despite still scoring pretty regularly). At times the effort and commitment from many senior players was embarrassing for a club the size of Manchester United.

 

[Destruction]

Good post Ian, particularly like the Giggs and Ferdinand bit.

 

[Steady]

Yep, spot on that. Moyes was fighting a losing battle from the start, and although he brought it on himself to an extent with the back room staff as you mentioned, some of the players behaved absolutely abhorrently. That 'consummate professional' Rio Ferdinand and his chums threw their toys out of the pram after Moyes took away their chips pretty much sums it up.

 

[G.B]

If you are going to keep posting this kind of nonsense you might want to engage with the reply instead of pretending you were fishing.

In what world did Moyes receive more criticism? Van Gaal constantly has his team selections and formations questioned on here, on man utd forums and anywhere you dare to look. He even has 4-4-2 chanted at him by the fans at Old Trafford.The media have been happy enough to continually mention his spending and how performances should be better neglecting to mention how much of a change has been made these last 6 months.

In comparison the OT crowd never once chanted anything at Moyes and were loyal to the end. The media narrative right up until his last game was that he needed more time and money despite the fact he got more time than any other manager would have got any other top club. Even on here people didnt turn on him until around this time now with the ridiculous comments he made plus the abject performances at Fulham and then to City and Liverpool

Moyes got an incredibly easy ride from both the press and fans and the plane stunt although misguided was a reaction to that. It was basically a way of getting out some criticism when the media and Old Trafford out of loyalty to Ferguson wouldn't.


As for Evans at the time he was playing excellently as most on here recognized. He always had a mistake in him but he was largely solid and was right there among the better ball playing defenders in the league

A combination of injuries and lack of confidence has pretty much destroyed him and this season he has been a complete disaster, truly dreadful. It happens to players.

Keeping bringing stuff up from the past is pretty much the lowest form of debate and just shows an inability to argue the point. So yea keep bringing that up if you like but I wont be trawling up your hilarious opinion that Krul is miles better than De Gea every time De Gea has a worldie.

wot u on about mate krul is, and will continue to be, much better than de given. thought you'd have learned from your epic jonny evans blunder not to take what robbie savage tells you as gospel.

i'd love to comment on the rest mate but the boys seem to have torn your deluded argument to shreads already, so i don't see much point.

 

[Christian Slater]

Yep, spot on that. Moyes was fighting a losing battle from the start, and although he brought it on himself to an extent with the back room staff as you mentioned, some of the players behaved absolutely abhorrently. That 'consummate professional' Rio Ferdinand and his chums threw their toys out of the pram after Moyes took away their chips pretty much sums it up.

If Moyes couldn't command respect and professionalism out of players that's his problem. Moyes was given an opportunity to step up to a big club and fluffed his lines, there's no need to excuse him.

LVG came in and instantly had the respect of the fans and the players because of his career. In that sense he did get a pass from the fans where Moyes didn't, because he'd earned it. He certainly isn't immune to criticism and has had plenty. If he drops United out of the top 4 then everyone will turn on him. He's treated no different from Moyes on a results based performance.

 

[G-Dragon]

LVG came in and instantly had the respect of the fans and the players because of his career. In that sense he did get a pass from the fans where Moyes didn't, because he'd earned it.

Imagine if Ferguson was treated the same way when he joined United.

 

[sl1k]

Manager's are mostly always on a roller coaster in terms of support and it's obviously relative to how the team is performing on the pitch as well as how many points are up on the board. LVG is 3rd in the PL while playing ugly, pragmatic, possession football which clearly doesn't suit our front heavy squad - some of our football has been really difficult to watch as the tactics don't match the talent. I get why it was thought that Moyes would bring a 'stability' given how we were in the hands of SAF for almost three decades, but in hindsight it was such an outdated approach in today's fast moving modern game. Moyes did not show the kind of progression that'd merit a summer "warchest" , there was every chance that he'd once again fail to attract the players needed to fill the places of players that were leaving or were past it. He'd have lost his job at any of the world's top clubs and I'm sorry, but LVG being charismatic and being able to blag press conferences is a talent & inifinitely better than a Moyes who very visibly looked like the club is draining the life and confidence out of him. I don't think he even believed he was up to the task in the end. The vultures would begin to circle on anyone.

 

[Bilbo]

In my opinion the difference between the two, although both haven't managed to bring the best out of the squad in terms of performance. Van Gaal is at least getting the results and is still capable of reaching his goal of finishing in the top 4. While by this time last year Moyes was already struggling, and top 4 looked less likely as the season progressed.

If United drop out of the top 4 before the end of the season, I fully expect a backlash same as the one witnessed by David Moyes.

 

[Steady]

If Moyes couldn't command respect and professionalism out of players that's his problem. Moyes was given an opportunity to step up to a big club and fluffed his lines, there's no need to excuse him.

LVG came in and instantly had the respect of the fans and the players because of his career. In that sense he did get a pass from the fans where Moyes didn't, because he'd earned it. He certainly isn't immune to criticism and has had plenty. If he drops United out of the top 4 then everyone will turn on him. He's treated no different from Moyes on a results based performance.

How on Earth you've managed to turn around Rio Ferdinand throwing a hissy fit because someone's taken his chips away onto Moyes is beyond me. If a professional athlete (a professional fucking athlete!) takes a dislike to a new manager because the new manager takes away his chips, does that not tell you a story? It's fuck all to do with 'commanding respect and professionalism out of players'; the players took an instant dislike to him because he wasn't Sir Alex Ferguson.

Again, how does that dispel the idea that Moyes was fighting a losing battle to begin with? Moyes had never had the opportunity to 'earn' respect of the fans and the players in regards to his career, this was his first big move. As someone mentioned earlier (and I know football has changed a hell of a lot since), if such an attitude was taken concerning Ferguson, you'd be nowhere near the club you currently are.

And another thing, LVG essentially blew smoke up your arse upon his arrival and you returned the compliment. He gave it all the 'this is the best club in the world' bluster, and the 'we'll play the Manchester United way' guff, which turned out to be just that. As aforementioned, this was one of Moyes' true deficiencies in that he failed to massage the considerable egos of the Manchester United fanbase. Van Gaal did it from the off and is reaping the benefits still.

Manager's are mostly always on a roller coaster in terms of support and it's obviously relative to how the team is performing on the pitch as well as how many points are up on the board. LVG is 3rd in the PL while playing ugly, pragmatic, possession football which clearly doesn't suit our front heavy squad - some of our football has been really difficult to watch as the tactics don't match the talent. I get why it was thought that Moyes would bring a 'stability' given how we were in the hands of SAF for almost three decades, but in hindsight it was such an outdated approach in today's fast moving modern game. Moyes did not show the kind of progression that'd merit a summer "warchest" , there was every chance that he'd once again fail to attract the players needed to fill the places of players that were leaving or were past it. He'd have lost his job at any of the world's top clubs and I'm sorry, but LVG being charismatic and being able to blag press conferences is a talent & inifinitely better than a Moyes who very visibly looked like the club is draining the life and confidence out of him. I don't think he even believed he was up to the task in the end. The vultures would begin to circle on anyone.

Can I ask, what 'progression' did van Gaal show in 'meriting a summer warchest'? As soon as he walked through the door he was given more than double the amount of money in a matter of months that Moyes was afforded in two transfer windows.

Also, I don't think you've realised, but you yourself have admitted there that some of the players were 'past it', which is absolutely spot on. Your Ryan Giggs', your Rio Ferdinands, your Nemanja Vidics and your Patrice Evras were already out of the door as soon as Ferguson left, whether they or you would like to admit that or not. Moyes was tasked with replacing those first-team names who had an even bigger impact in the dressing room than they did on the pitch, which shouldn't be understated. People talk of this 'rebuilding job' that van Gaal has undertaken, but they so often ignore the fact that Moyes, while he was given a multi-title-winning side on the face of things, had a handful of players that didn't even give him a chance because, again, he wasn't Sir Alex Ferguson.

Again, one of the main points of the Moyes-van Gaal comparisons is being ignored. Moyes was given a six-year contract at United, and so many would forgive him for thinking he had time to stamp his authority on the side. No-one is claiming he did a brilliant job in eight months because he wasn't good enough in those eight months, end of. But people need to understand that he was managing under the proviso that he was a 'long-term' manager, and would be afforded the necessary time to replace one of the best football managers of all time.

Conversely, van Gaal has come in with people instantly branding him a 'stop-gap' or 'short-term' manager, in that he has come in to galvanise and rejuvenate United. From the off, he's given a simpler task because it's easier to judge him. When you judge van Gaal you just have to look at the table, the points, the statistics of now because he is managing for the short-term with short-term expectations (top 3 this season, etc). When you judge Moyes, it would only be fair to judge him long-term, but because he was given eight months of a six-year contract, that's impossible. He was managing on a long-term basis, while van Gaal is not.

Yes, van Gaal is infinitely better than Moyes in press conferences and media interviews. I'll agree with that. However, as I stated above, van Gaal isn't exactly perfect in that regard. If Moyes had complained about a referee conspiracy after drawing with a League Two side, he'd have been crucified. I've not heard much criticism levelled at van Gaal by the media or fans for doing just that. Had Moyes come out after spending £150m+ on new players over two transfer windows, then signalled his intention to sign a 'creative midfielder' (despite wasting Mata and Herrera's talents on the bench), he'd have been criticised. Van Gaal is great in the media, but his instant appraisal for massaging the United family ego has paid off in the long-term as he's come out with some ridiculous stuff recently.

 

[Pagnell]

Again, how does that dispel the idea that Moyes was fighting a losing battle to begin with? Moyes had never had the opportunity to 'earn' respect of the fans and the players in regards to his career, this was his first big move. As someone mentioned earlier (and I know football has changed a hell of a lot since), if such an attitude was taken concerning Ferguson, you'd be nowhere near the club you currently are.

Why? Even putting aside the vast difference in Manchester United's standing between 1986 and 2013, there was far more to respect about Ferguson than Moyes from a footballing perspective. For a start he'd actually won numerous trophies and top flight titles in Scotland with Aberdeen.

 

[Pilgrim Meister]

These days with TV money and agents, Managers have had to change their approach towards the players, to a point, where a manager delivering a dressing room showdown of old after a poor 1st half/heavy defeat makes little difference if the players don't like or have respect for their manager. Players will play to rule for the wage and move onto a club to a manager they respect and like, or to see the current manager sacked for a run of poor results. If players have respect for a manager, they will listen, if they don't they will do their own thing.

Above is the reason why managers like Moyes failed at United, Paul Sturrock failed at Southampton all those years ago and other managers with Character (Warnock for example) have failed at the bigger clubs.

Players have more power now, and if they players don't want that particular manager, they will either play badly to engineer a move, or to get the manager sacked, and this has worked at many clubs in recent years.

Long player contracts also give players more power. Managers also have less power if clauses in contracts mean they have to have a set amount of appearances per season and in some cases starts.

 

[Christian Slater]

Imagine if Ferguson was treated the same way when he joined United.

Alex Ferguson took over a club that were known as a decent cup side in a totally different era. He also came in as the man that broke up the monopoly in Scotland and won in Europe with Aberdeen.

David Moyes took over the champions, a club that had competed for the title for years. Most United fans expected a top four finish and a good cup run. He couldn't even manage that so he had to go.

 

[Christian Slater]

How on Earth yoe managed to turn around Rio Ferdinand throwing a hissy fit because someone's taken his chips away onto Moyes is beyond me. If a professional athlete (a professional fucking athlete!) takes a dislike to a new manager because the new manager takes away his chips, does that not tell you a story? It's fuck all to do with 'commanding respect and professionalism out of players'; the players took an instant dislike to him because he wasn't Sir Alex Ferguson.

Again, how does that dispel the idea that Moyes was fighting a losing battle to begin with? Moyes had never had the opportunity to 'earn' respect of the fans and the players in regards to his career, this was his first big move. As someone mentioned earlier (and I know football has changed a hell of a lot since), if such an attitude was taken concerning Ferguson, you'd be nowhere near the club you currently are.

And another thing, LVG essentially blew smoke up your arse upon his arrival and you returned the compliment. He gave it all the 'this is the best club in the world' bluster, and the 'we'll play the Manchester United way' guff, which turned out to be just that. As aforementioned, this was one of Moyes' true deficiencies in that he failed to massage the considerable egos of the Manchester United fanbase. Van Gaal did it from the off and is reaping the benefits still.



Can I ask, what 'progression' did van Gaal show in 'meriting a summer warchest'? As soon as he walked through the door he was given more than double the amount of money in a matter of months that Moyes was afforded in two transfer windows.

Also, I don't think you've realised, but you yourself have admitted there that some of the players were 'past it', which is absolutely spot on. Your Ryan Giggs', your Rio Ferdinands, your Nemanja Vidics and your Patrice Evras were already out of the door as soon as Ferguson left, whether they or you would like to admit that or not. Moyes was tasked with replacing those first-team names who had an even bigger impact in the dressing room than they did on the pitch, which shouldn't be understated. People talk of this 'rebuilding job' that van Gaal has undertaken, but they so often ignore the fact that Moyes, while he was given a multi-title-winning side on the face of things, had a handful of players that didn't even give him a chance because, again, he wasn't Sir Alex Ferguson.

Again, one of the main points of the Moyes-van Gaal comparisons is being ignored. Moyes was given a six-year contract at United, and so many would forgive him for thinking he had time to stamp his authority on the side. No-one is claiming he did a brilliant job in eight months because he wasn't good enough in those eight months, end of. But people need to understand that he was managing under the proviso that he was a 'long-term' manager, and would be afforded the necessary time to replace one of the best football managers of all time.

Conversely, van Gaal has come in with people instantly branding him a 'stop-gap' or 'short-term' manager, in that he has come in to galvanise and rejuvenate United. From the off, he's given a simpler task because it's easier to judge him. When you judge van Gaal you just have to look at the table, the points, the statistics of now because he is managing for the short-term with short-term expectations (top 3 this season, etc). When you judge Moyes, it would only be fair to judge him long-term, but because he was given eight months of a six-year contract, that's impossible. He was managing on a long-term basis, while van Gaal is not.

Yes, van Gaal is infinitely better than Moyes in press conferences and media interviews. I'll agree with that. However, as I stated above, van Gaal isn't exactly perfect in that regard. If Moyes had complained about a referee conspiracy after drawing with a League Two side, he'd have been crucified. I've not heard much criticism levelled at van Gaal by the media or fans for doing just that. Had Moyes come out after spending £150m+ on new players over two transfer windows, then signalled his intention to sign a 'creative midfielder' (despite wasting Mata and Herrera's talents on the bench), he'd have been criticised. Van Gaal is great in the media, but his instant appraisal for massaging the United family ego has paid off in the long-term as he's come out with some ridiculous stuff recently.

LVG had the respect of the fans and the players because he'd earned it. That along with still meeting the required target is getting him by at the moment. His turgid football is certainly not getting a pass because every United fan is moaning about it.

Moyes didn't have the respect of the players and didn't earn the trust and respect of the fans. He's not our mate, we're not supposed to be nice to him if he's struggling beyond comprehension. He had his chance and blew it.

 

[Steady]

Why? Even putting aside the vast difference in Manchester United's standing between 1986 and 2013, there was far more to respect about Ferguson than Moyes from a footballing perspective. For a start he'd actually won numerous trophies and top flight titles in Scotland with Aberdeen.

Why what? Of course Ferguson had proven himself in regards to his achievements in Scotland - and although I obviously can't say for certain - I'd wager that plenty of United fans still looked upon him and questioned who he was and what he'd done in his managerial career, purely because of the fact he'd never done it in England.

Compared to Moyes, and although he'd never won a trophy and Ferguson, even before their United tenures, would have been considered the better manager, he clearly should have commanded respect from the players. He had a proven track record in the Premier League with Everton, let's not ignore that.

Point being, would you not agree that Moyes' job was already pretty much impossible if the players didn't respect him because of a 'lack' of past achievements? Anyone replacing Ferguson would've paled in comparison, and I firmly believe that any manager, including van Gaal, wouldn't have been given near enough time to make a lasting impact by the players, the press or the fans.

LVG had the respect of the fans and the players because he'd earned it. That along with still meeting the required target is getting him by at the moment. His turgid football is certainly not getting a pass because every United fan is moaning about it.

Moyes didn't have the respect of the players and didn't earn the trust and respect of the fans. He's not our mate, we're not supposed to be nice to him if he's struggling beyond comprehension. He had his chance and blew it.

But how could Moyes have commanded respect? He'd overachieved in every managerial position he'd held up to the United post, and while he had never won a trophy, he was clearly a very talented Premier League manager. That the fans and the players didn't 'trust' or 'respect' him because he'd never managed a 'top' club is, quite frankly, pathetic. He was handed a poisoned chalice and never stood a chance.

 

[Christian Slater]

I wouldn't say he overachieved at Everton but that's subjective. It's not pathetic at all, he was lucky enough to be given a chance in this day and age and he didn't step up. I don't get why you think United fans should have bent over to accommodate him, we were burdened with him as much as he was burdened with a job where he was going to struggle due to his lack of credentials.

 

[Steady]

I don't think you should have 'bent over to accommodate him', nor have I said or even implied as such. My umbrage isn't even with how United fans treated Moyes, because on the whole it was fairly good (certainly not the 100% backing Scruff insists). My problems lies with the players' attitudes towards him, typified by throwing a strop because he banned chips. If you don't think it's pathetic behaviour for a professional athlete to throw a hissy fit because their manager has banned them from eating food that they deem unhealthy, then just trust me when I say that I'm right and you're wrong on this.

FYI, he didn't 'struggle due to his lack of credentials', which is another nonsensical argument. He struggled for numerous reasons, including that many of the players didn't given him a chance from the start because he wasn't Sir Alex Ferguson. He struggled because he was working under the proviso that he'd be there for the long-term, not judged and sacked eight months into a six-year contract. People who say he wasn't good enough will never know, because he was working under conditions that people for whatever reason refuse to acknowledge. Do I think he could've been a success at United? I have absolutely no idea. Based on his tenure, no, but the point is that it's completely unfair to base it on that tenure. Do I think he was given a fair amount of time at United? Again, no.

 

[Christian Slater]

[It'sTE="Steady, post: 35835, member: 249"]I don't think you should have 'bent over to accommodate him', nor have I said or even implied as such. My umbrage isn't even with how United fans treated Moyes, because on the whole it was fairly good (certainly not the 100% backing Scruff insists). My problems lies with the players' attitudes towards him, typified by throwing a strop because he banned chips. If you don't think it's pathetic behasporta professional athlete to throw a hissy fit because their manager has banned them from eating food that they deem unhealthy, then just trust me when I say that I'm right and you're wrong on this.

FYI, he didn't 'struggle due to his lack of credentials', which is another nonsensical argument. He struggled for numerous reasons, including that many of the players didn't given him a chance from the start because he wasn't Sir Alex Ferguson. He struggled because he was working under the proviso that he'd be there for the long-term, not judged and sacked eight months into a six-year contract. People who say he wasn't good enough will never know, because he was working under conditions that people for whatever reason refuse to acknowledge. Do I think he could've been a success at United? I have absolutely no idea. Based on his tenure, no, but the point is that it's completely unfair to base it on that tenure. Do I think he was given a fair amount of time at United? Again, no.[/QUOTE]

It's not nonsensical at all. His lack of credentials coupled with changing too much when he arrived opened up the door for players to act unprofessionally. Of course they shouldn't behave like that, but Moyes shouldn't have created a position where nobody respected his authority. If players were acting like that he should have done something to recitify the problem.

Was he given a fasir amount of time? Probably not, but he was beyond fortunate to have been given the chance in the first place. I'm not going to feel sorry for him when he was given an opportunity not many guys in a similar position would. Taking a club that hadn't finished outside the top three in over two decades into seventh in his first year was unacceptable. It's not about being fair it's about producing the goods, it's competitive football not children's sports day.

 

[NiallQuinnDiscoPants]

[It'sTE="Steady, post: 35835, member: 249"]I don't think you should have 'bent over to accommodate him', nor have I said or even implied as such. My umbrage isn't even with how United fans treated Moyes, because on the whole it was fairly good (certainly not the 100% backing Scruff insists). My problems lies with the players' attitudes towards him, typified by throwing a strop because he banned chips. If you don't think it's pathetic behasporta professional athlete to throw a hissy fit because their manager has banned them from eating food that they deem unhealthy, then just trust me when I say that I'm right and you're wrong on this.

FYI, he didn't 'struggle due to his lack of credentials', which is another nonsensical argument. He struggled for numerous reasons, including that many of the players didn't given him a chance from the start because he wasn't Sir Alex Ferguson. He struggled because he was working under the proviso that he'd be there for the long-term, not judged and sacked eight months into a six-year contract. People who say he wasn't good enough will never know, because he was working under conditions that people for whatever reason refuse to acknowledge. Do I think he could've been a success at United? I have absolutely no idea. Based on his tenure, no, but the point is that it's completely unfair to base it on that tenure. Do I think he was given a fair amount of time at United? Again, no.

It's not nonsensical at all. His lack of credentials coupled with changing too much when he arrived opened up the door for players to act unprofessionally. Of course they shouldn't behave like that, but Moyes shouldn't have created a position where nobody respected his authority. If players were acting like that he should have done something to recitify the problem.

Was he given a fasir amount of time? Probably not, but he was beyond fortunate to have been given the chance in the first place. I'm not going to feel sorry for him when he was given an opportunity not many guys in a similar position would. Taking a club that hadn't finished outside the top three in over two decades into seventh in his first year was unacceptable. It's not about being fair it's about producing the goods, it's competitive football not children's sports day.[/QUOTE]

what did he change? not eating chips? he didn't exactly change the playing staff that much.

didn't Van Gaal completely move the training ground around? LVG has caused a massive change around in his playing staff since his time in charge.

 

[Steady]

I don't think you should have 'bent over to accommodate him', nor have I said or even implied as such. My umbrage isn't even with how United fans treated Moyes, because on the whole it was fairly good (certainly not the 100% backing Scruff insists). My problems lies with the players' attitudes towards him, typified by throwing a strop because he banned chips. If you don't think it's pathetic behasporta professional athlete to throw a hissy fit because their manager has banned them from eating food that they deem unhealthy, then just trust me when I say that I'm right and you're wrong on this.

FYI, he didn't 'struggle due to his lack of credentials', which is another nonsensical argument. He struggled for numerous reasons, including that many of the players didn't given him a chance from the start because he wasn't Sir Alex Ferguson. He struggled because he was working under the proviso that he'd be there for the long-term, not judged and sacked eight months into a six-year contract. People who say he wasn't good enough will never know, because he was working under conditions that people for whatever reason refuse to acknowledge. Do I think he could've been a success at United? I have absolutely no idea. Based on his tenure, no, but the point is that it's completely unfair to base it on that tenure. Do I think he was given a fair amount of time at United? Again, no.

It's not nonsensical at all. His lack of credentials coupled with changing too much when he arrived opened up the door for players to act unprofessionally. Of course they shouldn't behave like that, but Moyes shouldn't have created a position where nobody respected his authority. If players were acting like that he should have done something to recitify the problem.

Was he given a fasir amount of time? Probably not, but he was beyond fortunate to have been given the chance in the first place. I'm not going to feel sorry for him when he was given an opportunity not many guys in a similar position would. Taking a club that hadn't finished outside the top three in over two decades into seventh in his first year was unacceptable. It's not about being fair it's about producing the goods, it's competitive football not children's sports day.

'His lack of credentials opened up the door for players to act unprofessionally'.

Just read that sentence again.

'His lack of credentials opened up the door for players to act unprofessionally'.

Seriously.

Are you trying to excuse the players for acting like children because their manager had changed? Jesus.

In terms of 'trying to change too much'; even the slightest change would've seemed huge at United back then. Your most successful manager ever had just left after well over two decades in charge. If Moyes just tried to carry on in the same vein as Ferguson he'd have been criticising for trying to be a carbon copy. Are you latching on to the point where he was fighting a losing battle from the start yet?

And what could Moyes have done to 'rectify the problem'? Ferdinand had been around for over a decade at United and was more or less a guaranteed first-teamer when fit when Moyes walked through the door. Moyes makes the slightest change, and Ferdinand's pathetic reaction tells me and any other sane person that he - and as a result a select few others - wouldn't accept Moyes no matter what.

 

[Nilsson]

My problems lies with the players' attitudes towards him, typified by throwing a strop because he banned chips.

From what I've read it was more the constant defence-minded training sessions that irked the players. The fact the players never took to Moyes says more about him than it does about the players, for me. Above all the players want to be successful, they gain nothing with Moyes failing, they were just wholly uninspired by a guy who wasn't up to the job.

 

[sl1k]

Steady

Can I ask, what 'progression' did van Gaal show in 'meriting a summer warchest'? As soon as he walked through the door he was given more than double the amount of money in a matter of months that Moyes was afforded in two transfer windows.

Look at United's recent win/loss ratio. Yeah the football isn't pretty to watch at times but he is enroute to achieving our targets for this year. LVG is also a proven manager and it's atleast easy to identify areas that we need to tweak to get the team playing attractive attacking football.

Also, I don't think you've realised, but you yourself have admitted there that some of the players were 'past it', which is absolutely spot on. Your Ryan Giggs', your Rio Ferdinands, your Nemanja Vidics and your Patrice Evras were already out of the door as soon as Ferguson left, whether they or you would like to admit that or not. Moyes was tasked with replacing those first-team names who had an even bigger impact in the dressing room than they did on the pitch, which shouldn't be understated. People talk of this 'rebuilding job' that van Gaal has undertaken, but they so often ignore the fact that Moyes, while he was given a multi-title-winning side on the face of things, had a handful of players that didn't even give him a chance because, again, he wasn't Sir Alex Ferguson.

Ultimately it is down to the manager to keep his shit on point. Moyes couldn't even get the players to buy into his philosophy/brand of football. The logical thing to do would be to replace him before further rot settles into the club. Our players had practically zero confidence at the beginning of the season, but atleast things are slowly but surely getting better.

Again, one of the main points of the Moyes-van Gaal comparisons is being ignored. Moyes was given a six-year contract at United, and so many would forgive him for thinking he had time to stamp his authority on the side. No-one is claiming he did a brilliant job in eight months because he wasn't good enough in those eight months, end of. But people need to understand that he was managing under the proviso that he was a 'long-term' manager, and would be afforded the necessary time to replace one of the best football managers of all time.

I don't disagree with this point, which is why I critisise the way the club handled SAF's retirement. United needed to go through a massive transitional phase and should have appointed a proven manager, one that could deal with all the egos in the dressing room.

 

[G-Dragon]

Steady
Moyes couldn't even get the players to buy into his philosophy/brand of football.

I am still clueless to what brand of football Van Gaal wants United to play, heck even he himself does not know. All I know is if all fails - Stick Fellaini up top to hoof the ball....or just get a pen by "evading" the challenge.

 

[SALTIRE]

Man Utd fans are praising Felllaini and Young these days, they have short memories.

 

[Nilsson]

Man Utd fans are praising Felllaini and Young these days, they have short memories.

Fans slag players off when they play crap and praise them when they play well.

 

[SALTIRE]

"not good enough for Man Utd", "not fit enough to wear the shirt."

There's slagging and then there's that, which has been spouted by members on here and TFF about Fellaini and Young.

 

[Nilsson]

"not good enough for Man Utd", "not fit enough to wear the shirt."

There's slagging and then there's that, which has been spouted by members on here and TFF about Fellaini and Young.

They weren't good enough, but under Van Gaal they're proving to be a good squad members. Don't see the issue here?

 

[Shank]

I don't think you should have 'bent over to accommodate him', nor have I said or even implied as such. My umbrage isn't even with how United fans treated Moyes, because on the whole it was fairly good (certainly not the 100% backing Scruff insists). My problems lies with the players' attitudes towards him, typified by throwing a strop because he banned chips. If you don't think it's pathetic behaviour for a professional athlete to throw a hissy fit because their manager has banned them from eating food that they deem unhealthy, then just trust me when I say that I'm right and you're wrong on this.

To be fair to the players, they might have felt Moyes had disrespected them. He said that a team that had just won the title a year before was 'fat and unfit' so banned chips. Just Moyes trying to throw his weight about a bit.

 

[NiallQuinnDiscoPants]

United are in the semi finals of the FA Cup

They have Arsenal at home.

It doesn't matter what kind of awesome form Arsenal are in, when they turn up at Old Trafford you can guarantee a) a goal from Van Persie, b) the likes of Walcott, Giroud and Cazorla visibly disappearing from the Old Trafford turf, c) a narrow but quite comfortable United win.

 

[Pagnell]

Indeed. I'm not sure what the situation is in any domestic cup meetings at Old Trafford recently (have there been any?) but Arsenal haven't won there in the league since 2006. Wenger must have cried into his wine when he heard the draw.

EDIT -- Yup, quite a few non-league meetings. Since the turn of the century Arsenal have won 3 of 22 meetings at OT.