UKIP Thread

[Red]

Because they now identify with Britain and the plight of Britons more than that of migrants? That would be something positive I think.

Yeah like silky said 'I'm alright Jack'

 

[Red]

You didn't explicitly say that. But I pointed out the logical conclusion of the road you were heading down in my previous point.

Is an immigrant a hypocrite if he/she votes Labour? The party's manifesto says "Low-skilled migration has been too high and needs to come down. We need much stronger action to stop illegal migration" and "We will keep the cap on workers from outside the EU" as well as a whole load of other stuff about needing to get a hold of immigration.

The road I'm heading down is not one of no controls on immigration. We all know that there's a difference in terms of Labour and UKIPs policy on immigration, so I wouldn't say immigrants would be hypocritical if they voted Labou or Conservative for that matter.

 

[Alty]

So how much control on immigration can you vote for as an immigrant before you become a hypocrite? You're tying yourself in knots here.

 

[Red]

I true politician style - 'look, I'm not going to get drawn into putting a number on it' .

Seriously though compared to other parties UKIP want to curtail considerably more immigrants. We both know this and do you honestly really believe that if UKIP ever got in power they'd not go further in terms of their limits in immigration.

It's not just about numbers either Alty it's also about UKIPs narrative of demonising immigrants and scaremongering amongst the host population. The other parties don't try to engage support by resorting to those means do they? So an immigrant that supports that narrative is a hypocritical immigrant.

 

[Dan_Macclad]

So, after recieving all party leaflets now the lib dem one really left me confused.. Stating that this is a conservative stronghold, nobody will vote labour so they are the only alternative.

Maybe they should go and speak to local people, I think labour will do far better than they think.. Although unfortunately the Tories have to many loyal sheep round these parts.

 

[Dan_Macclad]

Isn't Farages's family history one of immigration.. Ironic.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

That's the thing though, it isn't ironic. He's not against immigration, he's against mass uncontrolled immigration. The true ethno-nationalist far-right see his 50k-a-year stance as a massive 'betrayal', as if he were one of them in the first place. You know the establishment media have done a good job when instead of seeing his immigrant roots or immigrant wife as a reason he might not be prejudiced, we instead can only conclude that he must be a massive hypocrite instead.

 

[Red]

He is against immigration, he just knows that to have any chance of any electoral success he can't be honest about the lengths he'd like to go to. You're naive if you believe otherwise.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

He is against immigration, he just knows that to have any chance of any electoral success he can't be honest about the lengths he'd like to go to. You're naive if you believe otherwise.

OK, support your assertion.

 

[Red]

It's not an assertion, it's my opinion. It's also my opinion he's privately a racist and Islamophobe . Although the when he says he'd take some of the Christian Migrants it tends to lend some weight to him being an Islamophobe.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Immigrants can either support the rights of other immigrants to come here and build a better life for themselves, like they, did or not. As I said they're perfectly entitled to support UKIP and their ilk. I'm merely saying I find it hypocritical if they do support UKIP, for the reasons I've already set out several times now.

Things like 'free' (i.e. publicly funded) university tuition made a lot of sense 40-50 years ago, i.e. when only a tiny percentage of school leavers progressed to tertiary education and the majority graduated into stable and high-paid employment, thereby making them likely net contributors for the rest of their working lives. Now that a much higher percentage of school leavers attend university, many of them to study degrees that are fairly worthless in terms of improving employability and earning potential, 'free' tuition makes rather less sense.

So, if someone who benefitted from 'free' tuition back in 1968 or whenever argues that students today should pay fees, is he being hypocritical? Is he being an unreasonable old meanie? Or has he (as dear old Maynard advised) merely changed his opinion in response to the facts changing?

Perhaps a similar argument could be made about some 'anti-immigration' migrants, since many of them will have emigrated to Britain during times when net migration was considerably lower. It ought to be borne in mind that net migration was almost at zero as recently as the early 1990s and there was actually negative net migration at various points in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. This business of having 250,000+ net migration is a relatively new thing, and one that came about not organically but as the result of political decisions made by successive New Labour governments in the late 1990s and early 2000s. It's also easily forgotten (by people on both sides of the political divide) that the sort of problems that often accompany high levels of net migration – overcrowding, oversubscribed public services, housing shortages, cultural disharmony, diminished social cohesion, etc. – are as likely to adversely affect settled (and newly arrived) migrants as the indigenous population. And the higher the net migration figure, the worse the adverse effects will be.

So, again, are these 'anti-immigration' migrants hypocrites? Is it the case, as mnb098mnb drolly suggested, that they've achieved such stunning degrees of cultural assimilation that they've become as territorial, selfish and racist as the horrible white Anglo-Saxon majority? Or is it merely that some of them have changed their opinion in response to the facts changing?

 

[silkyman]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...news/moors-murderer-ian-brady-reveals-9122780

 

[silkyman]

So, after recieving all party leaflets now the lib dem one really left me confused.. Stating that this is a conservative stronghold, nobody will vote labour so they are the only alternative.

Maybe they should go and speak to local people, I think labour will do far better than they think.. Although unfortunately the Tories have to many loyal sheep round these parts.

A gibbon in a blue rosette would get elected here.

 

[Smudge]

I see UKIP want to scrap the tax on tampons. But why should tampons be excluded from tax? Stuck up c***.

Please tell me that was a deliberate pun!

Its the classic 'lets appeal to the female voter because none of them are voting for us' tactic.

He is against immigration, he just knows that to have any chance of any electoral success he can't be honest about the lengths he'd like to go to. You're naive if you believe otherwise.

I agree with this. I keep having this argument with my dad, massively far right parties never do well, because they are so far right, they only attract a certain brand of extremist. EDL, Combat 18, Britain First, BNP etc. are in your face how right wing they are, so only those who are similarly extreme right wingers would ever vote for them. And thankfully, while I do despise the rise of the ignorant 'send the buggers back' brigade, the majority of people are not so anti immigration that they will actually vote for organisations as extreme as them. UKIP are putting on an acceptable face of racism and islamophobia, as has been said numerous times in this thread, playing on fear and grasping every single negative tale of immigrants as fuel to the fire.

The Tories are just as bad btw, just their bogeymen are the poor rather than immigrants. Blame all the country's ills on one pretty powerless corner of society, and build your campaign about that. For every reference to immigrants by UKIP, see the Tories and repeated underhanded mantras about us 'hard working people.'

Things like 'free' (i.e. publicly funded) university tuition made a lot of sense 40-50 years ago, i.e. when only a tiny percentage of school leavers progressed to tertiary education and the majority graduated into stable and high-paid employment, thereby making them likely net contributors for the rest of their working lives. Now that a much higher percentage of school leavers attend university, many of them to study degrees that are fairly worthless in terms of improving employability and earning potential, 'free' tuition makes rather less sense.

Interesting you use this example, as this is also a problem that has been exacerbated by problems created by previous governments. I think the main reason more and more college leavers now go on to university than before is not because it was free or the thing to do, but we have created a culture where to go forward into any half decent job, you need a degree now. Whereas go back 20-30 years, you only went to university for certain kinds of jobs, usually medical or academic careers. Plenty of other jobs you would go into via internships or apprenticeships. My degree was in journalism, and unsurprisingly, everybody who I came into contact with, other journalists, and most of the tutors who were qualified journos, very few ever attended university themselves. The ones that did tended to have done English degrees then come into journalism by accident. The rest came through mostly unpaid internships when they left school to get them on the ladder. Compare that to now, I did a 3 year degree, and even with that qualification (which I would struggle to gain a journalism job without) I was still expected to do unpaid work before I could even entertain the idea of getting a paid job. And the reality is, I couldnt afford to. I had a good part time job at the time I graduated, but would have had to leave it to be able to take up an unpaid position to try and get a career in journalism. So I have worked in another area altogether for the last 5 years since I graduated. My degree is practically worthless. And its not because I did a worthless degree with no job prospects, but because we have built a system where you are practically unemployable in most sectors without a degree, but even with that degree you'll probably go nowhere, and thats why numerous people are wasting their early 20s in university.

Bit off topic sorry.

 

[Alty]

Please tell me that was a deliberate pun!

Its the classic 'lets appeal to the female voter because none of them are voting for us' tactic.



I agree with this. I keep having this argument with my dad, massively far right parties never do well, because they are so far right, they only attract a certain brand of extremist. EDL, Combat 18, Britain First, BNP etc. are in your face how right wing they are, so only those who are similarly extreme right wingers would ever vote for them. And thankfully, while I do despise the rise of the ignorant 'send the buggers back' brigade, the majority of people are not so anti immigration that they will actually vote for organisations as extreme as them. UKIP are putting on an acceptable face of racism and islamophobia, as has been said numerous times in this thread, playing on fear and grasping every single negative tale of immigrants as fuel to the fire.

The Tories are just as bad btw, just their bogeymen are the poor rather than immigrants. Blame all the country's ills on one pretty powerless corner of society, and build your campaign about that. For every reference to immigrants by UKIP, see the Tories and repeated underhanded mantras about us 'hard working people.'



Interesting you use this example, as this is also a problem that has been exacerbated by problems created by previous governments. I think the main reason more and more college leavers now go on to university than before is not because it was free or the thing to do, but we have created a culture where to go forward into any half decent job, you need a degree now. Whereas go back 20-30 years, you only went to university for certain kinds of jobs, usually medical or academic careers. Plenty of other jobs you would go into via internships or apprenticeships. My degree was in journalism, and unsurprisingly, everybody who I came into contact with, other journalists, and most of the tutors who were qualified journos, very few ever attended university themselves. The ones that did tended to have done English degrees then come into journalism by accident. The rest came through mostly unpaid internships when they left school to get them on the ladder. Compare that to now, I did a 3 year degree, and even with that qualification (which I would struggle to gain a journalism job without) I was still expected to do unpaid work before I could even entertain the idea of getting a paid job. And the reality is, I couldnt afford to. I had a good part time job at the time I graduated, but would have had to leave it to be able to take up an unpaid position to try and get a career in journalism. So I have worked in another area altogether for the last 5 years since I graduated. My degree is practically worthless. And its not because I did a worthless degree with no job prospects, but because we have built a system where you are practically unemployable in most sectors without a degree, but even with that degree you'll probably go nowhere, and thats why numerous people are wasting their early 20s in university.

Bit off topic sorry.

Don't necessarily agree with everything you said at the top re immigration, but on the topic of encouraging everyone to go to uni and expecting people to undertake lengthy unpaid internships in order to forge out a career in their preferred sector, I couldn't agree more.

We've gone mad. We think 50% of young people should go to uni and seem to look down on people with very valuable, practical, non-academic skills and trades. What the fuck are we doing?

 

[Aber gas]

Please tell me that was a deliberate pun!

Its the classic 'lets appeal to the female voter because none of them are voting for us' tactic.



I agree with this. I keep having this argument with my dad, massively far right parties never do well, because they are so far right, they only attract a certain brand of extremist. EDL, Combat 18, Britain First, BNP etc. are in your face how right wing they are, so only those who are similarly extreme right wingers would ever vote for them. And thankfully, while I do despise the rise of the ignorant 'send the buggers back' brigade, the majority of people are not so anti immigration that they will actually vote for organisations as extreme as them. UKIP are putting on an acceptable face of racism and islamophobia, as has been said numerous times in this thread, playing on fear and grasping every single negative tale of immigrants as fuel to the fire.

The Tories are just as bad btw, just their bogeymen are the poor rather than immigrants. Blame all the country's ills on one pretty powerless corner of society, and build your campaign about that. For every reference to immigrants by UKIP, see the Tories and repeated underhanded mantras about us 'hard working people.'



Interesting you use this example, as this is also a problem that has been exacerbated by problems created by previous governments. I think the main reason more and more college leavers now go on to university than before is not because it was free or the thing to do, but we have created a culture where to go forward into any half decent job, you need a degree now. Whereas go back 20-30 years, you only went to university for certain kinds of jobs, usually medical or academic careers. Plenty of other jobs you would go into via internships or apprenticeships. My degree was in journalism, and unsurprisingly, everybody who I came into contact with, other journalists, and most of the tutors who were qualified journos, very few ever attended university themselves. The ones that did tended to have done English degrees then come into journalism by accident. The rest came through mostly unpaid internships when they left school to get them on the ladder. Compare that to now, I did a 3 year degree, and even with that qualification (which I would struggle to gain a journalism job without) I was still expected to do unpaid work before I could even entertain the idea of getting a paid job. And the reality is, I couldnt afford to. I had a good part time job at the time I graduated, but would have had to leave it to be able to take up an unpaid position to try and get a career in journalism. So I have worked in another area altogether for the last 5 years since I graduated. My degree is practically worthless. And its not because I did a worthless degree with no job prospects, but because we have built a system where you are practically unemployable in most sectors without a degree, but even with that degree you'll probably go nowhere, and thats why numerous people are wasting their early 20s in university.

Bit off topic sorry.

I'm currently trying to get my apprentice to stay with me or at least the trade ( chefs ) but he's under enormous pressure from his parents and friends to go to university . I'm not being cruel but lee " ain't one for book learning " I don't begrudge anyone looking to further their education but I fear it's going to be pointless for him and he would probably be better off staying and properly learning a trade he's shown some aptitude and talent for .

 

[The Southbank]

Please tell me that was a deliberate pun!

Its the classic 'lets appeal to the female voter because none of them are voting for us' tactic.



I agree with this. I keep having this argument with my dad, massively far right parties never do well, because they are so far right, they only attract a certain brand of extremist. EDL, Combat 18, Britain First, BNP etc. are in your face how right wing they are, so only those who are similarly extreme right wingers would ever vote for them. And thankfully, while I do despise the rise of the ignorant 'send the buggers back' brigade, the majority of people are not so anti immigration that they will actually vote for organisations as extreme as them. UKIP are putting on an acceptable face of racism and islamophobia, as has been said numerous times in this thread, playing on fear and grasping every single negative tale of immigrants as fuel to the fire.

The Tories are just as bad btw, just their bogeymen are the poor rather than immigrants. Blame all the country's ills on one pretty powerless corner of society, and build your campaign about that. For every reference to immigrants by UKIP, see the Tories and repeated underhanded mantras about us 'hard working people.'



Interesting you use this example, as this is also a problem that has been exacerbated by problems created by previous governments. I think the main reason more and more college leavers now go on to university than before is not because it was free or the thing to do, but we have created a culture where to go forward into any half decent job, you need a degree now. Whereas go back 20-30 years, you only went to university for certain kinds of jobs, usually medical or academic careers. Plenty of other jobs you would go into via internships or apprenticeships. My degree was in journalism, and unsurprisingly, everybody who I came into contact with, other journalists, and most of the tutors who were qualified journos, very few ever attended university themselves. The ones that did tended to have done English degrees then come into journalism by accident. The rest came through mostly unpaid internships when they left school to get them on the ladder. Compare that to now, I did a 3 year degree, and even with that qualification (which I would struggle to gain a journalism job without) I was still expected to do unpaid work before I could even entertain the idea of getting a paid job. And the reality is, I couldnt afford to. I had a good part time job at the time I graduated, but would have had to leave it to be able to take up an unpaid position to try and get a career in journalism. So I have worked in another area altogether for the last 5 years since I graduated. My degree is practically worthless. And its not because I did a worthless degree with no job prospects, but because we have built a system where you are practically unemployable in most sectors without a degree, but even with that degree you'll probably go nowhere, and thats why numerous people are wasting their early 20s in university.

Bit off topic sorry.

Deliberate pun.

 

[mnb089mnb]

So, again, are these 'anti-immigration' migrants hypocrites? Is it the case, as mnb098mnb drolly suggested, that they've achieved such stunning degrees of cultural assimilation that they've become as territorial, selfish and racist as the horrible white Anglo-Saxon majority? Or is it merely that some of them have changed their opinion in response to the facts changing?

Oh, it was 100% a joke but I think it's an interesting case of the usage of a word.

Often when people read the word "immigrant" they imagine "asylum seeker", when in reality there's a big difference between an Irish doctor, a Polish builder or a Syrian refugee. Immigrant is a word that's often used perjoratively. Lionel Messi is an immigrant, isn't he? As is Roy Keane. Only difference is that David Beckham in Spain would have been an 'expat', I guess.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean you won't benefit from it. I don't think I 'deserve' child benefit, I don't 'need' it, yet I still claim it. £££

 

[silkyman]

I'm sure this one is absolutely the last, last, LAST twat in the ranks of UKIP..

No more.

http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/exclusive-ukip-suspend-candidate-after-outrageous-anti-semitic-slur/

 

[Alty]

I'm sure this one is absolutely the last, last, LAST twat in the ranks of UKIP..

No more.

http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/exclusive-ukip-suspend-candidate-after-outrageous-anti-semitic-slur/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-england-32545431
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-04-27/...ate-suspended-for-falsifying-election-papers/
http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...ford-councillor-following-assault-conviction/

 

[Aber gas]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-england-32545431
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-04-27/...ate-suspended-for-falsifying-election-papers/
http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...ford-councillor-following-assault-conviction/

Yep , politics is a den of rogues and I'm being polite . This saddens but doesn't surprise me just as ukip is full off barely restrained racists and anti - Semites . I'm actually starting to feel a bit sorry for farage . I don't like him , or what he stands for but I don't actually think he knows what's going on in his party or who's standing for them .

 

[Smudge]

I'm sure this one is absolutely the last, last, LAST twat in the ranks of UKIP..

No more.

http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/exclusive-ukip-suspend-candidate-after-outrageous-anti-semitic-slur/

Outstanding. My local UKIP candidate! No doubt my dad will still find some way to deny any wrongdoing by anyone connected with UKIP. I did at first think he was only backing UKIP to wind me up, as he generally just starts liking anything I hate. But this has gone on for 5 years now so Im afraid hes genuine.

Yep , politics is a den of rogues and I'm being polite . This saddens but doesn't surprise me just as ukip is full off barely restrained racists and anti - Semites . I'm actually starting to feel a bit sorry for farage . I don't like him , or what he stands for but I don't actually think he knows what's going on in his party or who's standing for them .

I dont believe that. He knows the kind of right wing oddballs their policies will attract, and they are actively using that to garner votes, so he cant be all that surprised when some of the candidates spout some of the shit they do. I dont know how many times they can release the 'his views n no way represent those of UKIP' statement.

 

[silkyman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-england-32545431
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-04-27/...ate-suspended-for-falsifying-election-papers/
http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...ford-councillor-following-assault-conviction/

This IS a UKIP thread. And it happens with alarming regularity to the kippers, even this close to an election.

 

[silkyman]

Outstanding. My local UKIP candidate! No doubt my dad will still find some way to deny any wrongdoing by anyone connected with UKIP. I did at first think he was only backing UKIP to wind me up, as he generally just starts liking anything I hate. But this has gone on for 5 years now so Im afraid hes genuine.



I dont believe that. He knows the kind of right wing oddballs their policies will attract, and they are actively using that to garner votes, so he cant be all that surprised when some of the candidates spout some of the shit they do. I dont know how many times they can release the 'his views n no way represent those of UKIP' statement.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

This IS a UKIP thread. And it happens with alarming regularity to the kippers, even this close to an election.

Does it happen to UKIP more regularly than Labour, Conservatives or Lib Dems though? It's difficult to tell given how disproportionate the coverage of these scandals is. I think it probably does given how quickly they've grown and how difficult it will be to vet and coach so many new people in such a short space of time. I don't think it's anything inherent about their ideology though. I don't suppose 20 years down the line they'll still be jettisoning members on a weekly basis.

 

[Red]

They do attract that sort of person though. It's worrying that they have to vet and coach people. Fair play to them if they do though.

 

[silkyman]

That's the point. If they didn't appeal to these people, they wouldn't have the problems with them.

And they can't exactly vet them very well if so many are slipping through.

 

[silkyman]

And don't you think that the Murdoch press would be all over any Labour scandals like flies on shit?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

And don't you think that the Murdoch press would be all over any Labour scandals like flies on shit?

Well they haven't been, so no.

 

[Red]

Surprising given The Sun would stop at nothing to damage Miliband.