UKIP Thread

[Red]

?

PA suggesting you could be less of a dick sometimes.

 

[The Southbank]

I see UKIP want to scrap the tax on tampons. But why should tampons be excluded from tax? Stuck up c***.

 

[nousername]

As I said, the less secure the status of unskilled migrants, the more economically beneficial they are to the host country.

If migrant workers live in fear of deportation, they'll work harder, longer and in worse conditions for less money.

I guess that's what some liberal advocates of immigration sometimes forget; we get the economic benefit of migrants whether they're documented or not.

Just out of interest, is there any data to back that up?

I think you're correct in that undocumented migrants might be beneficial to the economy on a small scale, but surely they would be infinitely more beneficial to the economy if they were fully documented and legal? I.e. the ability to expand their skills, become more employable and ultimately contribute a greater amount to their employer and the countries coffers.

I wonder too, how many companies are sustained by employing illegal immigrants? The UK is no doubt losing a significant amount of business and corporation tax there.

Maybe what's needed is a clamp down on these companies who employ undocumented migrants, rather than the people themselves...?

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Just out of interest, is there any data to back that up?

I think you're correct in that undocumented migrants might be beneficial to the economy on a small scale, but surely they would be infinitely more beneficial to the economy if they were fully documented and legal? I.e. the ability to expand their skills, become more employable and ultimately contribute a greater amount to their employer and the countries coffers.

I wonder too, how many companies are sustained by employing illegal immigrants? The UK is no doubt losing a significant amount of business and corporation tax there.

Maybe what's needed is a clamp down on these companies who employ undocumented migrants, rather than the people themselves...?

There's not much data on undocumented migrants at all. Particularly not in the UK. There's a bit more in the US, but even so it's contested. It's almost certainly the case that undocumented migrants contribute less in tax than they use in services. But that's a narrow way of looking at "economic benefit" given that they are giving away their labour for much less than it's worth and that manifests itself in higher lower prices and better margins for companies, and hence more profit and larger tax revenues. It's almost certain that that is of net benefit to the economy, though not necessarily to the population as a whole.

I think it's probably more accurate to say "undocumented immigration benefits the capitalist class in the host country to a greater extent than documented immigration". Obviously at the sharp end of the spectrum, undocumented migration creates the same pressure for services that documented migration does. But there are people, often firmly entrenched in the establishment (e.g. former immigration minister Mark Harper) getting richer off the back of the labour of undocumented migrants.

I agree that companies employing undocumented migrants are very exploitative etc. I'm not convinced "cracking down" on them would be good for undocumented migrants as it's likely that would deprive them of employment and force them into further poverty. Nor would that be any good for the rest of us as it would no doubt drive people into even more illegal activity.

I think the solution, even with my wishy-washy pinko left-liberal hat on rather than my "no borders/down with capitalism" hat is to have an amnesty for undocumented migrants. Give them rights, allow them to organise. But I think that presumes that the exploitation of migrant workers is actually viewed as a problem by the political classes.

 

[Alty]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32340976

Much needed financial boost for UKIP at a time when they need to step it up if they're going to grab the handful of seats they think they can.

Presumably this might see The Express formally endorse the party too (when it's not bleating on about the Royal Family).

 

[silkyman]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/usvsth3m/english-teacher-hilariously-marks-ukip-5534111

 

[silkyman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32374871

UKIP officially backs some level of support for refugees.

As long as they are 'our sort' of refugee.

The rest can, presumably, fuck off?

 

[Alty]

The Tory line is that we shouldn't take anyone in.

 

[Red]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32374871

UKIP officially backs some level of support for refugees.

As long as they are 'our sort' of refugee.

The rest can, presumably, fuck off?

Typical opportunism from Farage, saying this amidst considerable coverage of Christian persecutions around the world. Farage knows full well the Shia Muslims in Libya are also being persecuted.

 

[Aber gas]

Yet more ukip flyers through my letterbox, take a hint guys I've already got a labour billboard and a massive St Pauli flag . Looks like I'm going to have to invest in a life size statue of tony benn and a nodding Lenin !!

 

[silkyman]

Saw Macc's MP the other day stood with his entourage outside a house with huge Labour signs in the front windows. They were all looking very perturbed.

 

[Red]

http://www.newstatesman.com/media-m...g-abroad-not-forget-vote-their-anti-immigrant

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

It's not an anti-immigrant agenda though, it's a pro-immigration control agenda, which is something a majority of first and second generation immigrants want too.

 

[Red]

Surely even you see the irony it it EG. We know Farage is ok with some people coming into the country, so long as they're not Muslims eh?
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2015...-only-take-in-christians-insists-nigel-farage

I wonder how many of those first and second generation immigrants would have welcomed a party that wanted to impose stricter immigration when they were trying to get into the UK?

 

[Alty]

Surely even you see the irony it it EG. We know Farage is ok with some people coming into the country, so long as they're not Muslims eh?
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2015...-only-take-in-christians-insists-nigel-farage

I wonder how many of those first and second generation immigrants would have welcomed a party that wanted to impose stricter immigration when they were trying to get into the UK?

Probably not many. Because people tend to want to do what's best for themselves and those around them at any given time. Anyone living in the UK now should be able to see we don't need any further mass influx of people.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I wonder how many of those first and second generation immigrants would have welcomed a party that wanted to impose stricter immigration when they were trying to get into the UK?

Why would it matter?

 

[Red]

Why would it matter?

The existence of such a party then would have potentially threatened their passage to the UK, like UKIP could potentially threaten the passage of immigrants today. I say let everyone and anyone in. Fuck Farage

 

[Alty]

The existence of such a party then would have potentially threatened their passage to the UK, like UKIP could potentially threaten the passage of immigrants today.

So?

 

[Red]

So I find it a bit hypocritical for immigrants who came here in the past to say they support UKIP when had UKIP been around back when they migrated they'd have felt threatened by UKIP.

 

[Alty]

So I find it a bit hypocritical for immigrants who came here in the past to say they support UKIP when had UKIP been around back when they migrated they'd have felt threatened by UKIP.

Felt threatened? They may or may not have been allowed to enter, depending on what skills they had to bring. But that's neither here nor there. Anyone who lives in the UK can come to whatever opinion they like on what's best for them, their community and the country in general. If that means an immigrant wants current levels of immigration reduced, that's fine. It certainly doesn't make them a hypocrite.

 

[Red]

I disagree. They benefited from being allowed to come here to make a better life for themselves and their families. Why support a party that is trying to curtail the opportunity for other people to do exactly what they did?

 

[silkyman]

Because 'I'm alright Jack'

 

[Alty]

I disagree. They benefited from being allowed to come here to make a better life for themselves and their families. Why support a party that is trying to curtail the opportunity for other people to do exactly what they did?

Because they don't think it's the right policy for them or the country?

Lots of people enjoy a good standard of living because previous Governments gave them or their antecedents something they shouldn't have done. Doesn't mean they have to support the policy for the rest of their lives. That'd be stupid.

 

[Red]

Because 'I'm alright Jack'

Exactly. I would imagine most immigrants and their families already settled here despise what UKIP are about and rightly so in my view.

 

[mnb089mnb]

It shows just how well immigrants integrate into the UK if they hate immigrants so soon after immigrating. Bravo!

 

[Red]

Because they don't think it's the right policy for them or the country?

Lots of people enjoy a good standard of living because previous Governments gave them or their antecedents something they shouldn't have done. Doesn't mean they have to support the policy for the rest of their lives. That'd be stupid.

Well that's your view and you're entitled to it. I'm not saying they have no right to support UKIP, of course they do, but I know for certain if I'd benefited from being allowed to come here to make a better life for me and my family I wouldn't support a party that seeks to curtail the opportunity for other people to come and build a better life for themselves. It's like saying, I can benefit from coming to the UK, but fuck you if you want to come here also and benefit from what I have.

 

[Alty]

Well that's your view and you're entitled to it. I'm not saying they have no right to support UKIP, of course they do, but I know for certain if I'd benefited from being allowed to come here to make a better life for me and my family I wouldn't support a party that seeks to curtail the opportunity for other people to come and build a better life for themselves.

Logical conclusion of this is that you'd support zero immigration controls. How many people worldwide would benefit from the opportunity to come to the UK? About 4-5 billion? All immigrants are supposed to support the rights of those people to come? Come on mate, do me a favour.

 

[Red]

Where have I said I support zero immigration controls? Do we really have to have this again Alty where you're saying I said something I did not say? If you're referring to the post above where I said something like let everyone and anyone in I'd have thought you'd have taken it for the joke that it was. I'll have you for libel if you keep this up .

Immigrants can either support the rights of other immigrants to come here and build a better life for themselves, like they, did or not. As I said they're perfectly entitled to support UKIP and their ilk. I'm merely saying I find it hypocritical if they do support UKIP, for the reasons I've already set out several times now.

 

[Alty]

Where have I said I support zero immigration controls? Do we really have to have this again Alty where you're saying I said something I did not say? If you're referring to the post above where I said something like let everyone and anyone in I'd have thought you'd have taken it for the joke that it was. I'll have you for libel if you keep this up .

Immigrants can either support the rights of other immigrants to come here and build a better life for themselves, like they, did or not. As I said they're perfectly entitled to support UKIP and their ilk. I'm merely saying I find it hypocritical if they do support UKIP, for the reasons I've already set out several times now.

You didn't explicitly say that. But I pointed out the logical conclusion of the road you were heading down in my previous point.

Is an immigrant a hypocrite if he/she votes Labour? The party's manifesto says "Low-skilled migration has been too high and needs to come down. We need much stronger action to stop illegal migration" and "We will keep the cap on workers from outside the EU" as well as a whole load of other stuff about needing to get a hold of immigration.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I disagree. They benefited from being allowed to come here to make a better life for themselves and their families. Why support a party that is trying to curtail the opportunity for other people to do exactly what they did?

Because they now identify with Britain and the plight of Britons more than that of migrants? That would be something positive I think.