UKIP Thread

[silkyman]

Rumours abound that loveable Nargle Fargle has been spotted looking somewhat 'less than steady on his feet' after spending the afternoon in a bar.

The debate could be interesting...

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

"...well of course we intend to leave a surplus where we found a deficit..."

"I LEFT A SURPLUS ON YOUR MUM LAST NIGHT HA HA"

 

[Tilbury]

I just don't see how any sane person can still believe that the only reason people want massively reduced immigration is because they've been whipped up into a frenzy by scaremongering bigots. The transformation of the country that Labour started in the 90's has been extreme, and in terms of social cohesion, national identity and the plight of the working class it's effects have been largely negative.



Yet they want to drastically reduce Eastern European immigration, the only thing keeping the white demo afloat, while looking more to the Commonwealth for migrants instead. Besides, being against immigration is not a white British thing. 60% of first and second generation immigrants want reduced or halted immigration too.

Sure it's not the only reason but it is a big reason. Immigration has been happening for much longer than that, and on a large scale.
Yeh can't say I'm surprised about that at all. I have a polish mate who is a massive ukip supporter, with irony at all having moved here a few years ago.

 

[Modernist]

migrants generate a net benefit to the economy of £55 per second.

Not the figure UKIP would have liked.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

migrants generate a net benefit to the economy of £55 per second.

Not the figure UKIP would have liked.

It's a figure designed to target the ignorant, let's be honest. A swell in the size of the market results in a higher GDP? Well duh, short of hundreds of thousands of migrants going on the dole, how could that not happen? It says next to nothing about the effect it has on the working class though.

 

[Alty]

Besides, being against immigration is not a white British thing. 60% of first and second generation immigrants want reduced or halted immigration too.

Key point that many 'progressives' consistently ignore.

 

[Modernist]

Key point that many 'progressives' consistently ignore.

Why would you ignore it, you look at the positi

It's a figure designed to target the ignorant, let's be honest. A swell in the size of the market results in a higher GDP? Well duh, short of hundreds of thousands of migrants going on the dole, how could that not happen? It says next to nothing about the effect it has on the working class though.

1995-2010 there was no statistically significant impact of migration on employment.

As for wages, the relationship between migration and pay isn't simple, there is some agreement among the government and academics that migrants increased wages at the top of the wage distribution but reduced wages at the bottom.
There are plenty of academic reports on this, with conflicting conclusions. Some say wages have gone down, others say they have gone up, and for many others immigration has had no impact on wages.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

1995-2010 there was no statistically significant impact of migration on employment.

What's your source? And do the stats discriminate between economic migrant and British citizen employment rates?

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Key point that many 'progressives' consistently ignore.

So what? Being an intolerant whopper is not confined to the White British.

 

[Alty]

So what? Being an intolerant whopper is not confined to the White British.

So thinking net migration of 300,000 is too high does not automatically mean you're racist or intolerant. Which is a myth bleeding heart liberals (who seem to have completely infiltrated and now overrun the left) have peddled for years.

 

[Aber gas]

He's talking about harassing people or shouting them down simply because they don't subscribe to the political/sociological zeitgeist. It's pretty straightforward.

Farage is wrong about plenty of things but he's entitled to his opinion and shouldn't be intimidated into not expressing them. Which is also a pretty straightforward point.

Basically, pillocks who think they're intellectually superior because they're in some avant garde theatre group can just fuck right off. Either present a superior argument or stay the fuck away from politics.

The current politicAl zeitgeist is clearly to the centre right so to paint farage as some sort of oppressed minority is ridiculous and as for shouting down political opinions that you don't agree with , the right and extreme right has a long and infamous legacy eg nf , bnp , combat 18 , edl

 

[Aber gas]

Although I dislike the man, I look forward to your response on the day you and your family are harassed and abused in a restaurant over their political beliefs. Always find it amusing when the politically righteous harp on about what is illegal, morally just, right, etc but are happy for the same sense of justice to be suspended for people with whom you disagree.

What about the countless Asian , black family's that have had their familys meals disturbed by edl demonstrations , what about peace protests attacked by right wing thugs . farage's fucking roast lamb being disturbed is an irelevance.

 

[Aber gas]

I've watched quite a few BF films. They're always accompanied by militaristic and dramatic music. . Notice the old publish the photo's of the 'reds' routine. Where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, that's it Redwatch on Combat18's site. Of course I'm not for one moment suggesting anyone in BF is also involved with C18

They're boasting about how the 'lefties' are hiding behind a door and then one of their apes shouts at the people inside 'you're bullies'


Deary me, the hypocrisy is totally lost on these pitiful individuals.

They obviously haven't met afa

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

So thinking net migration of 300,000 is too high does not automatically mean you're racist or intolerant. Which is a myth bleeding heart liberals (who seem to have completely infiltrated and now overrun the left) have peddled for years.

Lad, what's happened to you? I know you're a basically DUP fool, but you are with Farage now? Fuck's sake, you're intelligent, please don't go with Ebeneezer Goode, who is essentially a cry-baby moron who pretends to be an outcast...a la Farage. You're signing up to Tory politics.

I think the left is as soft as salad, but Farage? For fuck's sake, have some respect for yourself, he is the Monday Club, sweaty, sexless, Tory c***. He is the Conservative party.

 

[Alty]

Lad, what's happened to you? I know you're a basically DUP fool, but you are with Farage now? Fuck's sake, you're intelligent, please don't go with Ebeneezer Goode, who is essentially a cry-baby moron who pretends to be an outcast...a la Farage. You're signing up to Tory politics.

I think the left is as soft as salad, but Farage? For fuck's sake, have some respect for yourself, he is the Monday Club, sweaty, sexless, Tory c***. He is the Conservative party.

I don't think Farage is 'the answer' and I wouldn't vote UKIP in a domestic election. But the party does have a point when it says there's a section of society who've got a rotten deal out of the last 20 years, with one of the significant factors being the flooding of the labour market with low-skilled workers.

Also, I've never claimed to be a supporter of the DUP so fuck knows where you got that from.

 

[Red]

It always amuses me when these anti-immigration accusations are thrown around when talking about UKIP.

I have read through some of their policies on a couple of occasions and not once have I come across one that is 'anti immigration'.

I'm not voting UKIP before I'm called a facist or Farage sympathiser.

My view that in private I suspect Farage and many of the UKIP people actually are racist. The problem for UKIP is that like it or not whilst their policies attract people who aren't racist, they're more likely to attract people who are racist or bigoted.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

So thinking net migration of 300,000 is too high does not automatically mean you're racist or intolerant. Which is a myth bleeding heart liberals (who seem to have completely infiltrated and now overrun the left) have peddled for years.

This seems a really strange claim given that all the major political parties seem united in the belief that immigration is too high. Now you might very well think that they're largely just paying lip service to the problem, but the fact that it's so widely acknowledged as a mainstream issue leads me to believe that those nefarious bleeding heart liberals can't be doing an awfully good job. I'd imagine that very few, if any, people think immigration levels too high = racist, but a lot of the accompanying rhetoric is exactly that. And I think a lot of people simply take the view that the focus on immigration, while somewhat justified, is disproportionate; that it removes the focus from other important policy areas. Yes, there are sections of society who've got a raw deal out of the last 20 years (and before) but I think high levels of immigration are largely just serving to exacerbate pre-existing problems. Even if you impose very tight restrictions on immigration (which may present its own difficulties) those problems will still be there.

 

[Red]

Excellent post PA

 

[White Army]

I really dont buy into this argument that immigration is too high and needs to be lowered, and its a shame that Miliband feels he has to say this and stoop so low in order to get some votes.
Lets be honest the country isn't full and as much as ukip voters would like to believe there aren't millions of Romanians and Bulgarians desperate to get in. Yes the hospitals are running close to the max as are schools, but that's not to do with immigration, its to do with the current government deciding that the best way to move forward is to cut, cut and cut some more.
If people took more time to focus on whats going on in the city of London instead of focusing on a few immigrants working to pay for their family then the country might be in a better shape.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

I don't think Farage is 'the answer' and I wouldn't vote UKIP in a domestic election. But the party does have a point when it says there's a section of society who've got a rotten deal out of the last 20 years, with one of the significant factors being the flooding of the labour market with low-skilled workers.

Also, I've never claimed to be a supporter of the DUP so fuck knows where you got that from.

Sorry, went a bit haywire there. You know I respect your opinion so I was just surprised you'd identify with UKIP at all.

As far as Farage personally goes, I get it, I get why he is popular. He is vaugely charming and engaging compared to the computer print outs that are Cameron and Milibad but when you boil the piss down, Farage's views aren't pleasant. I don't necessarily believe he is a racist or far-right, but he panders to that audience and that's just as bad, that's why he went out of his way to bring immigrants into every thing he said on Thursday, he knows the uk is watching and it will resonate with certain elements who don't care about anything else.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Weird that people supposedly on the left swallow the "immigrants drive down wages" bullshit and see that as an argument for stopping immigration rather than stopping bosses from paying shit wages.

It's the same with housing. Immigrants don't cause a housing crisis, landlords do. An unregulated rental market, council house fire-sale and years of underbuilding and other policies to keep a housing bubble inflated have led to a crisis. Not migration.

I believe immigration control is morally wrong and that migration is a human right. I believe our immigration system is violent, racist and reprehensible. It's not that strange to see problems with capitalism being blamed on migrants but it is strange to see how much of the mainstream left is just prepared to totally cede most of that ground.

 

[Alty]

The current politicAl zeitgeist is clearly to the centre right so to paint farage as some sort of oppressed minority is ridiculous and as for shouting down political opinions that you don't agree with , the right and extreme right has a long and infamous legacy eg nf , bnp , combat 18 , edl

In terms of economics, I completely agree with you. We are experiencing, as we have done since 1979, an economic system designed and supported by those on the right. But that's not really what we're talking about here, is it? We're on the issue of social attitudes, people's liberty to speak etc. Whatever one thinks of UKIP (and they're really not that extreme in the grand scheme of things) they should be allowed to put their arguments so that they can be refuted in a reasonable way.

As for National Front, Combat 18....errr, yeah. I know. Who here is claiming it's okay for NF to go round terrorising people and threatening them into silence?

Lets be honest the country isn't full and as much as ukip voters would like to believe there aren't millions of Romanians and Bulgarians desperate to get in.

I believe England is the most densely populated country in Europe and one of the most of any developed country in the world. So the idea that people are just imagining we might have a problem seems a bit ignorant, I'm sorry to say.

Sorry, went a bit haywire there. You know I respect your opinion so I was just surprised you'd identify with UKIP at all.

As far as Farage personally goes, I get it, I get why he is popular. He is vaugely charming and engaging compared to the computer print outs that are Cameron and Milibad but when you boil the piss down, Farage's views aren't pleasant. I don't necessarily believe he is a racist or far-right, but he panders to that audience and that's just as bad, that's why he went out of his way to bring immigrants into every thing he said on Thursday, he knows the uk is watching and it will resonate with certain elements who don't care about anything else.

Yes, now here is where our views probably start to come closer together.

As I've mentioned on here a few times, though it continually seems to be ignored, until 2004 UKIP really didn't talk about immigration very much at all. Farage, Nuttall and the others who've been around since the early days are opposed to the EU for a number of reasons. Some of them undoubtedly very good. Others not. But the idea that UKIP only exists because everyone involved hates foreigners is stupid. I mean, the coverage of Farage illustrates this perfectly. Before it was widely known he had a German wife he was labelled a racist and a xenophobe. And then when it came out in the public domain he was called a massive hypocrite. Isn't it more likely he just wants to return to self-rule and actually quite likes people from elsewhere in Europe!?

That said, I too think the party veers dangerously close to whipping up some unpleasant sentiments and I acknowledge this is one of the aspects that troubles me. I don't think any of the senior people in UKIP are racist and I know the stated aims of the party are not inherently racist either. But I do accept that in harnassing people's sense of resentment they are in danger of making the general atmosphere hostile to immigrants. Which obviously is not good.

Weird that people supposedly on the left swallow the "immigrants drive down wages" bullshit and see that as an argument for stopping immigration rather than stopping bosses from paying shit wages.

It's the same with housing. Immigrants don't cause a housing crisis, landlords do. An unregulated rental market, council house fire-sale and years of underbuilding and other policies to keep a housing bubble inflated have led to a crisis. Not migration.

I believe immigration control is morally wrong and that migration is a human right. I believe our immigration system is violent, racist and reprehensible. It's not that strange to see problems with capitalism being blamed on migrants but it is strange to see how much of the mainstream left is just prepared to totally cede most of that ground.

I consider myself pretty left-wing but your first point here seems bonkers. How do you plan to dissuade business owners from paying a Pole £8 an hour to do something a British person had previously been paid £10 per hour to do?

All valid criticisms of our housing situation (which is fucking dire - I pay £1,400pm to live in a 1 bed flat in an average area FFS). But I think you're being extremely disingenuous to suggest the population rise isn't having an effect. If you're got millions more people to house, you need millions more houses!

If we adopted your immigration (non) system it would be ruinous. Which I suspect an intelligent bloke like you knows deep down. Your post reads a little bit like wafting your social conscience around rather than a genuine suggestion of how things could and should work.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

A country being densely populated is not a bad thing per se. What matters is how the people experience that "density" on a day-to-day basis. That partly comes down to individual temperament, but it also comes down to things like the health of the labour market, average wage, availability of services, quality of infrastructure, quality of urban planning, etc. Then you have to factor in things like political and social stability. No doubt countries like Switzerland and Japan are much more densely populated than, say, Zimbabwe. Or Sudan. Or Yemen. Doesn't make them a less desirable place to live, does it?

The best argument against the current situation, particularly with regard to intra-EU immigration, is that it's largely uncontrolled. And if it's uncontrolled, there isn't much scope for planning and/or managing the changes and challenges that inward migration can bring. Difficult to know how skilled and/or unskilled migrants will affect the wages or career prospects of the indigenous population if you don't know (roughly) how many will come over. Difficult to know how many new schools and hospitals will be needed. Ditto with regard to homes and roads. What about the social welfare system? What's needed? How much will it cost? How is it going to be paid for?

There's actually a decent (though rather Statist) argument that high levels oF inward migration is neither a good nor bad thing, at least not in any intrinsic or axiomatic sense. What matters is how the government in that country/state manages it. 300,000 new people per year may be fine if they can be accommodated without inconvenience and if their presence will actually add to the prosperity of the country. But you're unlikely to arrive at such a situation through sheer fluke. It requires management. And whether people like to admit or not, management requires a degree of control.

I suppose the curious thing is that it's UKIP (who still often describe themselves as libertarian) who come closest to making these arguments.

 

[nousername]

Weird that people supposedly on the left swallow the "immigrants drive down wages" bullshit and see that as an argument for stopping immigration rather than stopping bosses from paying shit wages.

It's the same with housing. Immigrants don't cause a housing crisis, landlords do. An unregulated rental market, council house fire-sale and years of underbuilding and other policies to keep a housing bubble inflated have led to a crisis. Not migration.

I believe immigration control is morally wrong and that migration is a human right. I believe our immigration system is violent, racist and reprehensible. It's not that strange to see problems with capitalism being blamed on migrants but it is strange to see how much of the mainstream left is just prepared to totally cede most of that ground.

A) I wouldn't class this is strictly an immigration issue, globalisation probably plays a more significant role in the flight of decent low-skilled manufacturing jobs abroad, but if a significant amount of labour is added to the jobs market, then how can that not drive down wages? (Not sure why a company would deliberately set out to pay their employees shit wages. They'll pay what the market dictates.)

B) landlords don't create housing shortages, bad planning from the government, local authorities etc. that prohibits house building does, (i.e. The green belt around London that artificially increases housing costs in the capital). More needs to be done to loosen building and planning regulation to encourage the construction of housing.

C) immigration control is morally wrong? Good grief. Not really sure what morals has to do with it, but surely for the sake of practicality and planning (that Scumbag makes) it's wise to at least know, so the government can plan accordingly?

 

[Captain Scumbag]

^
Most, if not all, migrants are pursuing a better life. Many are fleeing persecution, tyranny, war, poverty and various other things that any normal person would flee from. In some cases, they are fleeing problems that were either caused or greatly exacerbated by ill-advised foreign policy ventures by first world countries – quite possibly the very countries they wish to seek a better life in.

I dunno. The moral dimension of this is all quite interesting, once you open it up. If you can accommodate someone who is fleeing awful conditions (ones you would certainly not wish to endure) is there not a moral argument that you should? Not the most outlandish idea, I reckon.

 

[Tilbury]

Weird that people supposedly on the left swallow the "immigrants drive down wages" bullshit and see that as an argument for stopping immigration rather than stopping bosses from paying shit wages.

It's the same with housing. Immigrants don't cause a housing crisis, landlords do. An unregulated rental market, council house fire-sale and years of underbuilding and other policies to keep a housing bubble inflated have led to a crisis. Not migration.

I believe immigration control is morally wrong and that migration is a human right. I believe our immigration system is violent, racist and reprehensible. It's not that strange to see problems with capitalism being blamed on migrants but it is strange to see how much of the mainstream left is just prepared to totally cede most of that ground.

Good post. When you leave things to the free market of course they're gonna fuck us over.

 

[Red]

You're not sure why employers would deliberately set out to pay shit wages Nouser? I'd imagine it's to make as much profit as possible and to remain competitive.

A) (Not sure why a company would deliberately set out to pay their employees shit wages. They'll pay what the market dictates.)

Really?

 

[nousername]

You're not sure why employers would deliberately set out to pay shit wages Nouser? I'd imagine it's to make as much profit as possible and to remain competitive.


Really?

The definition of "shit wages" is pretty general, and I'd define it as a figure below the market average.

To use a broad example, if Asda decide to pay a "shit" wage to their employees, then their staff will fuck off to Tesco or Sainsbury, and Asda will find it difficult to staff their shops and rapidly lose their customers in the process.

It's a balance. In a market where people are free to work for whoever they want, then employers have a vested interest in keeping their staff content. Pay their staff too much and then their product will become uncompetitive and they will lose customers, pay them too little and they will have no staff.

 

[Tilbury]

It's not just a case of being able to fuck off to another job though. There aren't an infinite number of jobs at Tesco or Sainsbury so the ASDA employee probably either works for what ASDA pay him or he has no job and goes hungry.

(And I say this as someone who works for one of these, and we can easily get several hundred applications for 1 job)

 

[nousername]

^
Most, if not all, migrants are pursuing a better life. Many are fleeing persecution, tyranny, war, poverty and various other things that any normal person would flee from. In some cases, they are fleeing problems that were either caused or greatly exacerbated by ill-advised foreign policy ventures by first world countries – quite possibly the very countries they wish to seek a better life in.

I dunno. The moral dimension of this is all quite interesting, once you open it up. If you can accommodate someone who is fleeing awful conditions (ones you would certainly not wish to endure) is there not a moral argument that you should? Not the most outlandish idea, I reckon.

I'll be honest, I've never given much thought to the idea of immigration being a moral question. (I'd be interested to hear you expand on the idea though). I've always viewed it as practical issue (infrastructure etc.) and one that should primarily serve Britians best interests (skilled labour, tax payers etc).

Surely though, we can only look at the moral dimension once we have sorted out the practical elements of immigration? It would be difficult to make commitments to bringing in, say, 150,000 Syrian refugees if we didn't really understand the ability of our services and infrastructure to handle such an amount of people.

I guess it furthers your point about managing immigration. If we don't have control, then we aren't in a position to make commitments...