UKIP Thread

[Ian_Wrexham]

The definition of "shit wages" is pretty general, and I'd define it as a figure below the market average.

To use a broad example, if Asda decide to pay a "shit" wage to their employees, then their staff will fuck off to Tesco or Sainsbury, and Asda will find it difficult to staff their shops and rapidly lose their customers in the process.

It's a balance. In a market where people are free to work for whoever they want, then employers have a vested interest in keeping their staff content. Pay their staff too much and then their product will become uncompetitive and they will lose customers, pay them too little and they will have no staff.

You don't have that much power as a shop-worker. ASDA depress wages and can undercut Tesco and Sainsbury's and steal a load of their custom. Tesco and Sainsbury's would also depress wages to compete. On an individual level, the threat to take your labour elsewhere doesn't carry much weight.

When I worked in Tesco, I was unionised which gave some protection against that. But it's naive to think that shop-workers would be paid a fair wage by the free-market.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

I'll be honest, I've never given much thought to the idea of immigration being a moral question. (I'd be interested to hear you expand on the idea though). I've always viewed it as practical issue (infrastructure etc.) and one that should primarily serve Britians best interests (skilled labour, tax payers etc).

Surely though, we can only look at the moral dimension once we have sorted out the practical elements of immigration? It would be difficult to make commitments to bringing in, say, 150,000 Syrian refugees if we didn't really understand the ability of our services and infrastructure to handle such an amount of people.

I guess it furthers your point about managing immigration. If we don't have control, then we aren't in a position to make commitments...

On a rigid national-interest level, there are certainly strong benefits from inward migration. There are even stronger economic benefits from illegal immigration - the creation of a hidden labour class not bound by working time directives or minimum wage legislation.

It's worth pointing out that the more you "control" migration, the less you're able to keep tabs on this hidden class of migrants - the most vulnerable to exploitation. There are somewhere between half a million and million undocumented migrants in the UK and I imagine it's easier to mitigate the problems associated with immigration when you know who and where these people are.

Syrian refugees have to go somewhere and will put a strain on the infrastructure of wherever they pitch up. I guess we can go "tough shit Lebanon/Turkey, they're your problem now" but I'd rather we spent the money we seem only too happy to spend on dropping bombs on people/waging illegal wars/nuclear weapons on building our infrastructure to a point where we can be a safe haven for refugees.

 

[Aber gas]

UKIP are a continuation of a historic climate of fear of immigration . The rhetoric , propaganda and verbal imagery they use have been all used before . It's just the bogeyman that's changed . Now it's romanians and Bulgarians whereas it was West Indian people and South asians when I was growing up and before that Irish people and before that Jewish people . The process rarely changes, first people's fear of the unknown is stoked . Second the dehumanising of the immigrant group begins so they become a problem to be dealt with rather than people . Finally the fear is whipped up into anger and the idea that something must be done about this problem . UKIP might seem like a new face on the political scene but they've always been around .

 

[Pyeman]

On a rigid national-interest level, there are certainly strong benefits from inward migration. It's worth pointing out that the more you "control" migration, the less you're able to keep tabs on this hidden class of migrants - the most vulnerable to exploitation. There are somewhere between half a million and million undocumented migrants in the UK and I imagine it's easier to mitigate the problems associated with immigration when you know who and where these people are.

This is a really interesting element to the immigration debate that I'm not sure many people have considered. The more you prohibit something, the greater the opportunity you create for illicit trade or movement; the same could be said of immigration.

Would tighter controls on immigration limit the flow of people into the country, or would it just increase the extent to which people come here illegally?

 

[Aber gas]

In terms of economics, I completely agree with you. We are experiencing, as we have done since 1979, an economic system designed and supported by those on the right. But that's not really what we're talking about here, is it? We're on the issue of social attitudes, people's liberty to speak etc. Whatever one thinks of UKIP (and they're really not that extreme in the grand scheme of things) they should be allowed to put their arguments so that they can be refuted in a reasonable way.

As for National Front, Combat 18....errr, yeah. I know. Who here is claiming it's okay for NF to go round terrorising people and threatening them into silence?


I believe England is the most densely populated country in Europe and one of the most of any developed country in the world. So the idea that people are just imagining we might have a problem seems a bit ignorant, I'm sorry to say.


Yes, now here is where our views probably start to come closer together.

As I've mentioned on here a few times, though it continually seems to be ignored, until 2004 UKIP really didn't talk about immigration very much at all. Farage, Nuttall and the others who've been around since the early days are opposed to the EU for a number of reasons. Some of them undoubtedly very good. Others not. But the idea that UKIP only exists because everyone involved hates foreigners is stupid. I mean, the coverage of Farage illustrates this perfectly. Before it was widely known he had a German wife he was labelled a racist and a xenophobe. And then when it came out in the public domain he was called a massive hypocrite. Isn't it more likely he just wants to return to self-rule and actually quite likes people from elsewhere in Europe!?

That said, I too think the party veers dangerously close to whipping up some unpleasant sentiments and I acknowledge this is one of the aspects that troubles me. I don't think any of the senior people in UKIP are racist and I know the stated aims of the party are not inherently racist either. But I do accept that in harnassing people's sense of resentment they are in danger of making the general atmosphere hostile to immigrants. Which obviously is not good.


I consider myself pretty left-wing but your first point here seems bonkers. How do you plan to dissuade business owners from paying a Pole £8 an hour to do something a British person had previously been paid £10 per hour to do?

All valid criticisms of our housing situation (which is fucking dire - I pay £1,400pm to live in a 1 bed flat in an average area FFS). But I think you're being extremely disingenuous to suggest the population rise isn't having an effect. If you're got millions more people to house, you need millions more houses!

If we adopted your immigration (non) system it would be ruinous. Which I suspect an intelligent bloke like you knows deep down. Your post reads a little bit like wafting your social conscience around rather than a genuine suggestion of how things could and should work.

You say you know what these groups do , but do you really ? I to my upmost shame was involved in combat 18 and some even shittier off shoots when I was a lot younger and the level of hatred was ridiculous . But what was scarier was the attention paid to left wing grass roots activists . Addresses , phone numbers the lot and no I don't think ukip are the same as the British movement but their rhetoric and posturing in mainstream politics makes it a lot easier for fascists to prosper and feel that their shite is ok because " you know that fella off the telly , who drinks pints has said no foreigners like "

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Would tighter controls on immigration limit the flow of people into the country, or would it just increase the extent to which people come here illegally?

Both.

 

[Pyeman]

Both.

Well yes, obviously there will be an element of both, but it is a question of scale. If for every one legal immigrant less we absorb, we get one additional illegal immigrant, then what's the point of implementing tighter controls in the first place?

I suppose the answer is that tighter controls alone probably aren't going to have a major impact, so if you do want to reduce immigration, you need to remove some of the incentive people have to come here in the first place.


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[Ian_Wrexham]

Well yes, obviously there will be an element of both, but it is a question of scale. If for every one legal immigrant less we absorb, we get one additional illegal immigrant, then what's the point of implementing tighter controls in the first place?

As I said, the less secure the status of unskilled migrants, the more economically beneficial they are to the host country.

If migrant workers live in fear of deportation, they'll work harder, longer and in worse conditions for less money.

I guess that's what some liberal advocates of immigration sometimes forget; we get the economic benefit of migrants whether they're documented or not.

 

[Pyeman]

As I said, the less secure the status of unskilled migrants, the more economically beneficial they are to the host country.

If migrant workers live in fear of deportation, they'll work harder, longer and in worse conditions for less money.

I guess that's what some liberal advocates of immigration sometimes forget; we get the economic benefit of migrants whether they're documented or not.

It may be economically beneficial on a macro level, but isn't the fact that migrant workers are willing to work for less money one of the main reasons that UKIP have so much support from the public?

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Yes, but like anything it's important to consider who benefits from restricting (legal) immigration. It's not workers who benefit but bosses.

 

[Red]

You say you know what these groups do , but do you really ? I to my upmost shame was involved in combat 18 and some even shittier off shoots when I was a lot younger and the level of hatred was ridiculous . But what was scarier was the attention paid to left wing grass roots activists . Addresses , phone numbers the lot and no I don't think ukip are the same as the British movement but their rhetoric and posturing in mainstream politics makes it a lot easier for fascists to prosper and feel that their shite is ok because " you know that fella off the telly , who drinks pints has said no foreigners like "

Redwatch. My brother and I appeared on there once. Not singled out, but we were photographed on our town's May Day rally.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Well yes, obviously there will be an element of both, but it is a question of scale. If for every one legal immigrant less we absorb, we get one additional illegal immigrant, then what's the point of implementing tighter controls in the first place?

I think it's pretty much inconceivable that the number of illegals we'd get from within the EU could ever match the number we already get legally, and the number outside the EU has no reason to change.

 

[merseyboyred]

"number of illegals"

They are people too, right?

 

[Pilgrim Meister]

Well yes, obviously there will be an element of both, but it is a question of scale. If for every one legal immigrant less we absorb, we get one additional illegal immigrant, then what's the point of implementing tighter controls in the first place?

I suppose the answer is that tighter controls alone probably aren't going to have a major impact, so if you do want to reduce immigration, you need to remove some of the incentive people have to come here in the first place.


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That would involve hiking prices, abolishing the NHS and scrapping benifits alltogether, which just isn't going to happen and any politcal party who dared to propose this as a policy would dissapear very quickly

 

[Pyeman]

That would involve hiking prices, abolishing the NHS and scrapping benifits alltogether, which just isn't going to happen and any politcal party who dared to propose this as a policy would dissapear very quickly

You don't have to abolish the NHS or scrap benefits altogether, there is some middle ground between all or nothing.

I'm not necessarily saying we should deter immigrants, but if you do want to limit migration to the UK then I'm not sure tighter controls alone are enough.


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[Ebeneezer Goode]

"number of illegals"

They are people too, right?

Aww bless.

 

[HertsWolf]

and no I don't think ukip are the same as the British movement but their rhetoric and posturing in mainstream politics makes it a lot easier for fascists to prosper and feel that their shite is ok because " you know that fella off the telly , who drinks pints has said no foreigners like "

I suspect this is very true. I also think that it creates a fashionable and "acceptable" way for quite odious and/or simplistic and/or blunt force solutions to complex challenges to be presented publicly. Low-grade shock-jock local radio DJs feel it quite acceptable to present truly bizarre 'solutions' to (usually just perceived) 'problems'. These solutions are the kind of barmy rubbish spouted by the idiot in the corner of every (non-gastro) pub in the country, but UKIP take that looney rubbish into the political framework and suddenly inaccurate, scaremongering shite becomes OK and fair comment.

 

[merseyboyred]

Aww bless.

At least I get patronised and not dehumanised I guess.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Abbreviating illegal immigrants to illegals is dehumanization? Deary me. I'll try and remember to add a trigger warning in future for all the delicate little flowers out there.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

You could alternatively try to be less of a dick.

 

[Alty]

Come on guys. Remember when we all migrated and everyone loved each other? How nice was that?

I see even the thread celebrating how much we all like each other has descended into a hate-fest

 

[SUTSS]

We never would have been able to migrate to this forum if UKIP were in power.

 

[Alty]

We never would have been able to migrate to this forum if UKIP were in power.

Oh I dunno. Australian-style points system. Most of us would have made it, I reckon.

Not Pilgrim Meister though. He's a Romanian thief.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You could alternatively try to be less of a dick.

Let's not get carried away.

 

[Aber gas]

I suspect this is very true. I also think that it creates a fashionable and "acceptable" way for quite odious and/or simplistic and/or blunt force solutions to complex challenges to be presented publicly. Low-grade shock-jock local radio DJs feel it quite acceptable to present truly bizarre 'solutions' to (usually just perceived) 'problems'. These solutions are the kind of barmy rubbish spouted by the idiot in the corner of every (non-gastro) pub in the country, but UKIP take that looney rubbish into the political framework and suddenly inaccurate, scaremongering shite becomes OK and fair comment.

It's the politics of fear . Perceived rather than real , the image of the extreme right is of skinheads and jack boots and this is true to an extent but the real power behind it both financially and politically are scared people who want the country to revert to some lost ( mainly white) eden that never existed except in the lounge bars of Middle England . This is where ukips main support comes from and as they become more accepted in the political and media mainstream so too do the nuttier elements of their support.

 

[Red]

Dunno. I think he summed it up quite well to be honest EG.

 

[Aber gas]

Redwatch. My brother and I appeared on there once. Not singled out, but we were photographed on our town's May Day rally.

It was pathetic tbh , nutters frothing at the mouth because a local church group were protesting against a local Bnp councillor . Pictures of little old ladies being held up whilst a complete c*** shouted " the commie bitch dies " not a happy period of my life .

 

[Red]

You came out the other end though mate and have moved on.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Dunno. I think he summed it up quite well to be honest EG.

?

 

[Aber gas]

You came out the other end though mate and have moved on.

Yeah completely gone the other way now . Searchlight , afa the lot . The sad thing is some of my old "friends" didn't . Some of them are dead ( actually quite a lot ) some are non political and some have levered themselves into suits and can be often be seen shouting about immigration in various local papers . Fucking sad