UKIP Thread

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Bit of context. This happened in 2010. The girl posted a video on facebook of herself burning a copy of the Qu'ran at school in front of other pupils. A 14 year old boy made threats against her. They were both arrested and bailed. A week later the CPS decided to take no further action against either.

If that's the biggest threat to free expression we face, I think we're probably just about OK.

Who's to say that it is though? A man has been jailed for it in the past, and the language is vague enough to allow for all sorts of interpretations. I think freedom of expression should be sacrosanct. First we had this, then laws against the glorification or terrorism, so what could be next? There's plenty of scope for further erosion. France has a whole slew of these laws.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Who's to say that it is though? A man has been jailed for it in the past, and the language is vague enough to allow for all sorts of interpretations. I think freedom of expression should be sacrosanct. First we had this, then laws against the glorification or terrorism, so what could be next? There's plenty of scope for further erosion. France has a whole slew of these laws.

Well you'll be pleased to hear that none of the people having a party in Farage's pub are campaigning for extensions to those laws. So freedom of expression is under threat from the SJW extremists.

 

[HertsWolf]

Getting that irritated over a Internet forum makes you the fucking embarassment.

Agree. People screaming to be heard while decrying those who have different views as 'fucking embarrassments' or 'fascists'.

Sadly, I would still take up arms to defend the rights of these c*** to have their inexecrable voices heard.

 

[Alty]

I did some migrants rights leafleting in an area of London that was targeted by Operation Skybreaker a few months back. This was an Immigration Control "outreach exercise" that involved about a dozen, tooled up, uniformed Immigration Enforcement Officers (often with other, actual, cops) going into Asian/African shops and restaurants and demanding to see lists of employees; demanding to see the papers of customers; refusing to let customers leave; refusing to leave when asked and frequently making arbitrary arrests.

All of this was illegal, racist and relied on people not being aware of their own rights. But shopkeepers told me that Immigration Control operations were multiple times a week, often daily and that there was no point even staying open when the operations were taking place.

I don't think Farage is entirely to blame for this - May is a nasty piece of work - but his rhetoric deliberately inflames and encourages these abuses - this state sanctioned harassment. The volume and prominence of lies about immigration makes it impossible for groups fighting for migrants rights to effectively counter the rhetoric (despite the arguments against these operations being straightforward).

And while I don't think harassing him out of public life would work, it'd be pretty sweet. And having his Sunday Lunch ruined is the least he deserves.

I'm sorry but an anecdote about a heavy-handed immigration operation sanctioned by a Conservative Home Secretary is not a valid reason for supporting the harassment of UKIP's leader.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

I think EG has a point here. There is a growing section of the left who want to shut down debate and are going to increasingly authoritarian methods to do this.

Fair enough. If this is a growing trend then it's certainly not one that I welcome and I'm certainly happy to recognise that there are belligerent people right across the political spectrum that would sooner attempt to shut down a debate than listen to an alternative perspective. At the same time I do tend to think that things are occasionally a little bit more nuanced, a bit more complex than X trying to stifle Y. Often people simply have legitimate grievances about how a debate is being conducted, how the arguments are being framed, who the participants are etc, all things that tend to get lost in the inevitable fall out.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

I'm sorry but an anecdote about a heavy-handed immigration operation sanctioned by a Conservative Home Secretary is not a valid reason for supporting the harassment of UKIP's leader.

I guess it's interesting to compare and contrast the "harassment" Nigel Farage faces from a cabaret in his local with the state sanctioned harassment of the immigration system people in Newham and Tower Hamlets face on a daily basis. Farage's policies would step up these kinds of intrusions, so it's kind of nice he gets a taste of his own medicine.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Perhaps not. But there is a group of the left who are so dogmatic in their views that they will attack anyone who is outside of that even when they really should be allies. Take Peter Tatchell for example, a great campaigner for LGBT rights and the sort of person that everyone on the left sees as an ally but with the signing of a letter that was also signed by some pretty unsavoury people he was hounded and labelled an enemy. This has happened to many more people on the left that haven't gone along with the dogma and get labelled homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic, racist for actually holding some pretty liberal views. This is perhaps best seen at universities where an increasing number of liberal thinkers aren't being allowed to speak due to pressure by student groups.

I think that social media make it easier to point out to people when they're being problematic. Often famous people, particularly, older, high-profile activists have got so used to no-one telling them they're wrong that they don't take it very well.

The letter was well dodgy, smeared a load of people and was signed by an utter mess of bigots. I can see why some trans people were annoyed at him. But the idea (and this is an idea Tatchell himself put out to the media) that he was hounded and labelled an enemy was pretty far from the truth.

Here's a pretty detailed and even-handed write-up of what happened.

http://paper-bird.net/2015/02/21/on-death-threats-trolls-and-truth/

 

[HertsWolf]

I see that a (presumably) different bunch of odious knobs assaulted Milliband yesterday too.
My sense is that a physical assault on a political figure only ever tends to increase support for them.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

It'll be a shame if they have to move toward more US-style security details.

 

[Red]

I note you refuse to acknowledge my post about your false accusations, Alty.

 

[Red]

I see that a (presumably) different bunch of odious knobs assaulted Milliband yesterday too.
My sense is that a physical assault on a political figure only ever tends to increase support for them.

Burley and Paxman?

 

[Modernist]

Farage praising Milliband, blimey maybe Farage isn't a total nutcase afterall.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

In "people getting harassed more than a cabaret in their pub" news

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...estigate-ukip-protest-threat-nigel-farage-pub

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

"One frothing tankard of right thinking orthodoxy was heard to remark that the protesters "should fuck right off from politics and stick to rehearsing their mime based adaptation of The Cherry Orchard". A UKIP spokesman declined to comment."

 

[Tilbury]

Nice to see UKIP have a bit of muscle.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=758526417625955

 

[Red]

I've watched quite a few BF films. They're always accompanied by militaristic and dramatic music. . Notice the old publish the photo's of the 'reds' routine. Where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, that's it Redwatch on Combat18's site. Of course I'm not for one moment suggesting anyone in BF is also involved with C18

They're boasting about how the 'lefties' are hiding behind a door and then one of their apes shouts at the people inside 'you're bullies'


Deary me, the hypocrisy is totally lost on these pitiful individuals.

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

"And your staging of The Master Builder was a total fucking disgrace to theatre too!" screamed one Britain First member. "Knut Brovnik? More like c*** Brovnik! You should be shot just like your hero Vsevolod Meyerhold!", added another, who was dressed in an asparagus green 2004 Shepton Mallett Real Ale Festival t-shirt. Nigel Farage was unavailable for comment.

 

[HertsWolf]

I suspect the latter. They pretty much know that putting resources in there would be a waste of time, and also they are banking on UKIP splitting the Tory Vote. If Labour put their resources into their Heartlands, they are more likely to get into power

Don't agree. Labour got 31% in 2010.....that's almost a third of the vote, so there's strong local support and they could attract voters from both Con and UKIP. Margate and Ramsgate have hardly benefited from the economic revival and the closure of Manston has affected jobs. Call me a cynic, but I suspect you will see pro-Manston news in the coming weeks (possibly direct financial support for the reopening of the airport) as an 'incentive' to the good people of east Kent.

I think Labour will campaign strongly here because there are post-2010 issues in Thanet and east Kent (Manston, gridlock from trucks on M20, jobs, etc) that could play into their hands.

 

[silkyman]

Nice to see UKIP have a bit of muscle.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=758526417625955

Jeez.

Look at the pictures from the first incident in there. Oh no.. Fancy dress... Flamboyance.... Terrifying.

I'm sure I'd react exactly the same way to being approached by the first lot as I would having a group of black dressed skinheads shouting at me.

Identical situations.

 

[Tilbury]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32160667
Farage wants 'normal' levels of immigration of around 30,000 a year.
Would be a disaster for our future considering the huge amounts of Britons leaving the country each year.
For example it hasn't been below 130,000 since 2001, so we'd have lost well over a million people, probably pushing two million, from our totals

 

[Hooped Wizard]

Clacton
South Thanet
Boston & Skegness
Rochester & Strood

And maybe a random Welsh constituency are sadly the only seats UKIP have a good chance of retaining/gaining.

 

[Tilbury]

Some of the south Essex seats they will do very well in, wouldn't be surprised to see them pick something up there.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

Some of the south Essex seats they will do very well in, wouldn't be surprised to see them pick something up there.[/QUOT


Their doing well in Castle Point apparently which is ironically a prominently white English catchment area.

 

[Tilbury]

A large white population just means more people they can try and instil a fear of an invasion of immigrants on. In Thurrock they actually polled 6 points ahead of labour (1st place). http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2015/01/thurrock/
Outdated but still very interesting/worrying.
*

 

[Modernist]

No doubt the UKIP voters will wet themselves after the debate tonight....ooo er sounds a bit sexy.

No doubt Farage could sacrifice a sheep on the white cliffs of dover to an anti immigrant god and people would still love him.

 

[Bobbin']

It always amuses me when these anti-immigration accusations are thrown around when talking about UKIP.

I have read through some of their policies on a couple of occasions and not once have I come across one that is 'anti immigration'.

I'm not voting UKIP before I'm called a facist or Farage sympathiser.

 

[Tilbury]

I wouldn't call them racist or fascist but how could you possibly not think they are anti immigration? They want to massively limit the number of immigrants. It's basically the definition of it.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I just don't see how any sane person can still believe that the only reason people want massively reduced immigration is because they've been whipped up into a frenzy by scaremongering bigots. The transformation of the country that Labour started in the 90's has been extreme, and in terms of social cohesion, national identity and the plight of the working class it's effects have been largely negative.

A large white population just means more people they can try and instil a fear of an invasion of immigrants on.

Yet they want to drastically reduce Eastern European immigration, the only thing keeping the white demo afloat, while looking more to the Commonwealth for migrants instead. Besides, being against immigration is not a white British thing. 60% of first and second generation immigrants want reduced or halted immigration too.

 

[Bobbin']

I wouldn't call them racist or fascist but how could you possibly not think they are anti immigration? They want to massively limit the number of immigrants. It's basically the definition of it.

They want to implement stricter immigration laws, sure. That doesn't equate to anti immigration.

 

[SUTSS]

I don't think the level of immigration actually does that much to people's attitudes about it. People have always though there is too much immigration regardless of how much there actually is. This can be seen in polling which shows people in the late 70s were just about as concerned with immigration as we are now despite their being very low net migration and having just come off the back of a long period of negative net migration. Polls also show that most people don't think immigration is a problem in their area but do think it is a problem for the rest of the country, which shows that attitudes aren't being based on actual day to day interactions with immigrants.

Also poll after poll show that people are just wrong about immigration levels, especially illegal levels. The other thing that most people are concerned about is the strain on public services something that bears little resemblance to the reality. They also show a correlation (but not another info to say it is definitely a causation) between the paper you read and how concerned you are with immigration, Express readers being the most concerned and Guardian readers being the least.

(https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/D...d-reality-immigration-report-summary-2013.pdf)