American mass shooting thread

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Err, you've basically stated everything I did and claimed the adulation. I've done nothing but preach harmony & greater understating.

yeah when u called mordon a 'c***' it was done in such a loving way

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Which isnt homophobic

You can argue that it's been blown out of proportion but you can't really argue that it isn't homophobic. To say that you wouldn't invite your son and his partner round to your house based on their sexual orientation is explicitly homophobic.

Well no because s1lk wasn't offensive so what was there to be implicated?

I don't find it difficult to believe that a gay forum member would find his comments offensive, or any member really. It would be like one of us telling him that we wouldn't let our kids bring his son round for dinner because he's brown or because he's a Muslim.

 

[Abertawe]

In the same way I'd call a duck a duck.

 

[Abertawe]

You can argue that it's been blown out of proportion but you can't really argue that it isn't homophobic. To say that you wouldn't invite your son and his partner round to your house based on their sexual orientation is explicitly homophobic.



I don't find it difficult to believe that a gay forum member would find his comments offensive, or any member really. It would be like one of us telling him that we wouldn't let our kids bring his son round for dinner because he's brown or because he's a Muslim.

You wouldn't let a brown or Muslim round though

At least sl1k is honest about his prejudice.

 

[NorfolkWomble]

I don't think accepting homophobia is a good way to promote understanding and harmony Aber.

 

[sl1k]

So now I HAVE to have his boyfriend round for dinner to not be a homophobe? If that makes me a homophobe then I'm homophobe fuck it.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

also u have to give him a backrub

 

[Renegade]

On the spectrum sl1k, you would be treating your son's boyfriend differently than your son's girlfriend (your son is a playaaa). Considering how liberal you are in almost every other respect, pretty surprised you stick to that aspect of your faith.

The homophobic spectrum is a good idea btw. 3/10 for sl1k.

 

[Stevencc]

You find a magazine called "Boyz" under your son's bed and, when confronted, he claims that he only subscribes to it for its excellent puzzle section.

He leaves the room and you flick to the back pages looking for the puzzles and you find a Sudoku puzzle. Above the puzzle there is no mention of the word "Sudoku", though. Instead, you see the word "Suck-dick-o". There is also a "Cockword" puzzle. The hints and answers are all standard but upon further inspection you notice that your son has tried to shoehorn numerous gay sexual slang words into the boxes rather than the actual answers.

What do you do next, Sl1k?

 

[sl1k]

I'd have said a 2, but I'll take that Rene

 

[sl1k]

You find a magazine called "Boyz" under your son's bed and, when confronted, he claims that he only subscribes to it for its excellent puzzle section.

He leaves the room and you flick to the back pages looking for the puzzles and you find a Sudoku puzzle. Above the puzzle there is no mention of the word "Sudoku", though. Instead, you see the word "Suck-dick-o". There is also a "Cockword" puzzle. The hints and answers are all standard but upon further inspection you notice that your son has tried to shoehorn numerous gay sexual slang words into the boxes rather than the actual answers.

What do you do next, Sl1k?

I will not be entertaining these (hilariously) bonkers scenarios Ste, you crazy fuck

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

 

[Stevencc]

Major changes were made.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Their solicitors will be in touch.

 

[Stevencc]

Here's another one, then...

Sl1k comes home from a hard day at work and kisses his wife, who is preparing a meal for her wonderful family. He heads upstairs and freshens up in the bathroom. He makes his way downstairs but glances into his son's room, which has a pink "DO NOT ENTER " sign stuck on it, and sees him dancing around rather animatedly while wearing headphones.

"Honey"?

"What's the problem, Sl1kybaby"?

"I just saw our son dancing around like some kind of homosexual up there".

"I can hear him".

"Well"?

"Don't jump to conclusions, just because you found that gay magazine that was very similar to one described in an episode of the Ricky Gervais show and now you've seen him dancing doesn't mean that he is gay. For all you know he was listening to something manly like Napalm Death or Neil Diamond".

"Maybe you are right. You call him down and I'll have a quick look - just to put my mind at rest".

"Soooooooonnn, dinner's ready - turn your music off and get down here!"

He walks gracefully down the stairs and skips past his father towards the dinner table.

Sl1k walks up to his son's bedroom - picks up his mp3 player and sees the song title "Forbidden Love" from the album "Bedtime Stories".

Perhaps it's a classic rock track or something, Sl1k thinks to himself.

He googles the title on his phone and looks for the album cover...

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

haha a constructive use of your time that post

 

[Pagnell]

Steve is playing out his own internal issues and fantasies here. Fantastic stuff.

 

[spireite]

So now I HAVE to have his boyfriend round for dinner to not be a homophobe? If that makes me a homophobe then I'm homophobe fuck it.

Well yea, that shoe fits in that case, as you are treating him differently because of his sexual orientation. Not having a go like, but that is pretty much word for word what that word means. It's not his choice to be gay, it strikes one as horribly unfair on the lad (or lass, your girl might like carpets too!)

 

[Pliny Harris]

Now this may be a difficult pill to swallow, but homosexuality is prohibited in Islam. The guy in this instance was saying that it is not for us to judge or administer punishment and that it is for only God o deal with in whatever way he does. I don't see what's wrong with that statement, if he had said anything different it would have been disingenuous.

Because this reply was originally directed at me, I would still like to respond.

Everyone who knows my godfather knew he was a homophobe. This was a man whose wife took him to the ballet, and he literally ran out of the theatre as soon as the first male dancer came onstage. A man who stopped going to his favourite restaurant in town when he was served by a flamboyant waiter there. This is a man who never gave leeway to anyone who took a different approach to him. Then his son, my godbrother, came out after 22+ closeted years. It left my godfather in genuine disarray, but he confided that he knew it was himself who had the problem, and actively did his best to come around to the news. He accepted it, he visited his son when he went to his boyfriend's.

In the village where I grew up was a genuine pillar of a man. Known by everyone, willing to help anybody, always out and about, would look after our animals when we went on holiday, and would cultivate flowerbeds around the area. He also had a male partner, and their families had completely cut both of them off when they met back in the '60s. When his partner died, he withdrew to the extent that I only saw him three times in the five years of his life he spent widowed, before his own, barely noticed death.

If there's no harm in ostracising same sex partners then I'm a banana. Change the minority to anyone else and it's clear how bigoted it is to state you wouldn't dine with the boyfriend of your son. And the above story is what happens when these attitudes are allowed to thrive, and is far from even the worst anecdote.

If the only argument is, as it always seems to be, "Nnngg, I just don't accept it" with the occasional qualification of ancient scripture, then it's clear who really is morally bankrupt. I'm sure He is capable of providing logical reasons as to why xyz is a sin, as from what I hear He is not exactly stupid. I'm pretty much certain that heavy drinking isn't the only thing you, sl1k, do, that the Qur'an teaches against. Why is that dilution of the Qur'an a-OK with you, but one that doesn't concern you in any expressible way not OK? Tens of thousands in the UK die every year from cirrhosis of the liver alone. Where Islam is the official religion, the punishments for homosexuality ruin and even end lives. Meanwhile, the Christian right, aware it's losing the battle on its home turf, is throwing money at destroying the lives of queers in the Global South. I know what worries me.

These ideas do a disservice to every queer and ally Muslim I know.

 

[NorfolkWomble]

Post of the year.

 

[sl1k]

I never said my current lifestyle is acceptable from an Islamic perspective. I'm also in no position to say which sin is worse, a sin is sin. I'm in no position to say who's Muslim and who's not, in fact doing that in itself is a sin.

Judgement is for Allah alone. In the scenario my son is gay, as I've said, he is my son and my personal relationship will remain the same. His relationship with his partner will be between him and his partner, who I'll be civil with as with any other human being. But I don't have to have his partner over for dinner, this may offend, but that's my boundary and I will not apologise for it.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Post of the year.

alright steady on chap

 

[NorfolkWomble]

I never said my current lifestyle is acceptable from an Islamic perspective. I'm also in no position to say which sin is worse, a sin is sin. I'm in no position to say who's Muslim and who's not, in fact doing that in itself is a sin.

Judgement is for Allah alone. In the scenario my son is gay, as I've said, he is my son and my personal relationship will remain the same. His relationship with his partner will be between him and his partner, who I'll be civil with as with any other human being. But I don't have to have his partner over for dinner, this may offend, but that's my boundary and I will not apologise for it.

Yet my views on your religion are completely unacceptable and legitimise you and others on this forum calling me a c***, a fuckboi and a multitude of other insults. Logical.

 

[sl1k]

No, I called you a fuckboi pussy c*** cos you tried getting rude with me in the middle of a discussion for no reason. Don't talk shit innit Bruv.

 

[Max]

I never said my current lifestyle is acceptable from an Islamic perspective. I'm also in no position to say which sin is worse, a sin is sin. I'm in no position to say who's Muslim and who's not, in fact doing that in itself is a sin.

Judgement is for Allah alone. In the scenario my son is gay, as I've said, he is my son and my personal relationship will remain the same. His relationship with his partner will be between him and his partner, who I'll be civil with as with any other human being. But I don't have to have his partner over for dinner, this may offend, but that's my boundary and I will not apologise for it.

When you say your personal relationship would remain the same, I don't agree.

Being gay is a fundamental part of who someone is. The problem with the religious approach to sexuality is that it is action-centred. Islam (and Christianity and Judaism) forbid homosexual acts. Adherence to religious scripture does not allow for sexuality to be part of a person's identity - it is only talking about the sexual acts.

But my point is, a person is gay. It is central to their identity. If you refuse to accept your son's boyfriend, you are refusing to accept him. You are saying that all relationships he is capable of having make you uncomfortable. While this may be the case for you, and you of course can choose who you have in your house and who you have to dinner, it is naive to think in this hypothetical scenario that your relationship with your son would be unaffected. You would be behaving in a way that invalidated his identity. You would be constantly, outwardly wishing him to be different in a way that is unfair, because he would not be capable of meeting this standard.

Love is a very big part of life. By refusing to accept someone's unchangeable attractions and desires as they are, you're implicitly making a judgement on that person. It may not be with an intent to be hurtful, but these things get internalised.

It is one of the reasons that LGBT people are so susceptible to low self-esteem, mental health problems, substance abuse etc. LGBT people are constantly, both explicitly and subliminally told, from childhood, that they are disordered, of a lower standard, incapable of functional, healthy relationships etc by various factors. When I was growing up it was in the tabloids, it was in classrooms (through section 28), it was through playground bullying, it was through a total lack of visible LGBT people, it was through religious influence, it was through comments heard in football stadiums and just in the street.

Society and culture now is far less institutionally homophobic than it used to be, but religious doctrines reinforce shame and internalised homophobia. Bringing this back to the topic at hand, I found it very interesting that people have claimed the gunman was actually secretly gay. I think often LGBT people are often relieved or somehow feel vindicated when homophobes turn out to be homosexual. But the fact is, some people plain old don't like gay people, and as broad sociological trends move towards tolerance and acceptance, it is a shame that the Abrahamic religions continue to sow the seeds that later turn into homophobic violence.

 

[blade1889]

Now I'm slightly more awake I was going to contribute more than my previous short ramblings but feel Max and Pliny have covered pretty much all I could say.

One thing I will pick you up on Sl1k (and Max to a lesser extent) is that abrahamic religions & their followers are becoming more accepting. Sure they're still a long way off where they ought to be but they are improving and there is no reason to suggest they cant continue to do so. A poll was discussed a few months back in the religion thread on Muslims views on 'western values' such as women working, gay school teachers etc. It was originally mentioned (I think) as a kind of 'see, we cant ever integrate with Muslims' but when you actually looked at the full results there was a clear trend that the younger the Muslim (and the longer they had been in the UK and the more closely they felt tied to the UK) as two other analysed variables) the less likely they were going to not want there to be gay marriage/teachers etc. So clearly attitudes can and are changing for the better.

 

[spireite]

When you say your personal relationship would remain the same, I don't agree.

Being gay is a fundamental part of who someone is. The problem with the religious approach to sexuality is that it is action-centred. Islam (and Christianity and Judaism) forbid homosexual acts. Adherence to religious scripture does not allow for sexuality to be part of a person's identity - it is only talking about the sexual acts.

But my point is, a person is gay. It is central to their identity. If you refuse to accept your son's boyfriend, you are refusing to accept him. You are saying that all relationships he is capable of having make you uncomfortable. While this may be the case for you, and you of course can choose who you have in your house and who you have to dinner, it is naive to think in this hypothetical scenario that your relationship with your son would be unaffected. You would be behaving in a way that invalidated his identity. You would be constantly, outwardly wishing him to be different in a way that is unfair, because he would not be capable of meeting this standard.

Love is a very big part of life. By refusing to accept someone's unchangeable attractions and desires as they are, you're implicitly making a judgement on that person. It may not be with an intent to be hurtful, but these things get internalised.

It is one of the reasons that LGBT people are so susceptible to low self-esteem, mental health problems, substance abuse etc. LGBT people are constantly, both explicitly and subliminally told, from childhood, that they are disordered, of a lower standard, incapable of functional, healthy relationships etc by various factors. When I was growing up it was in the tabloids, it was in classrooms (through section 28), it was through playground bullying, it was through a total lack of visible LGBT people, it was through religious influence, it was through comments heard in football stadiums and just in the street.

Society and culture now is far less institutionally homophobic than it used to be, but religious doctrines reinforce shame and internalised homophobia. Bringing this back to the topic at hand, I found it very interesting that people have claimed the gunman was actually secretly gay. I think often LGBT people are often relieved or somehow feel vindicated when homophobes turn out to be homosexual. But the fact is, some people plain old don't like gay people, and as broad sociological trends move towards tolerance and acceptance, it is a shame that the Abrahamic religions continue to sow the seeds that later turn into homophobic violence.

Brilliant post. Cue Sl1k pushing his fingers in ears and going 'la la la la la la'. No matter who told you something, how you're told it, when it's ingrained into you or what institution it is part of, religious or otherwise; if something is *wrong* then it's wrong and needs to be weeded out, or at least have people willing to accept that it's wrong and change their view. It's so inhuman and immoral to treat someone different based on who they choose as a partner.

 

[Pliny Harris]

I never said my current lifestyle is acceptable from an Islamic perspective. I'm also in no position to say which sin is worse, a sin is sin. I'm in no position to say who's Muslim and who's not, in fact doing that in itself is a sin.

Judgement is for Allah alone. In the scenario my son is gay, as I've said, he is my son and my personal relationship will remain the same. His relationship with his partner will be between him and his partner, who I'll be civil with as with any other human being. But I don't have to have his partner over for dinner, this may offend, but that's my boundary and I will not apologise for it.

Nope, that's hardly an argument, it's little more than rephrasing previous words.

If judgment is for Allah alone, let's set our moral grounds on evidence, think for ourselves and show our working. We do wrong, and as you understand it it's not your place to tot up where people go wrong. So why perpetrate the sort of attitude that, at the best of times, breaks down relationships and social standings, based on complete non-issues?

The amount of things somebody can "justify" by stating "that's just my boundary" is endless, and can get pretty nasty.

I don't mean any of this to be point scoring or owt. All I really want is dozens of people I love to go where they want while being who they want, without a jot of fear.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

I don't know how you can reject someone's partner and expect your relationship with them to be unaltered. And if you reject someone's partner on the grounds of their sexual orientation then you're a homophobe; that much seems pretty clear to me.

I genuinely don't think some people understand how much emotional baggage gay people can carry about - it can be an intense burden and expecting us to conform to the ideal according to some ancient scripture is downright cruel.

 

[Techno Natch]

I never said my current lifestyle is acceptable from an Islamic perspective. I'm also in no position to say which sin is worse, a sin is sin. I'm in no position to say who's Muslim and who's not, in fact doing that in itself is a sin.

Judgement is for Allah alone. In the scenario my son is gay, as I've said, he is my son and my personal relationship will remain the same. His relationship with his partner will be between him and his partner, who I'll be civil with as with any other human being. But I don't have to have his partner over for dinner, this may offend, but that's my boundary and I will not apologise for it.

Saying "That's my boundary and I will not apologise for it" Doesn't make it okay and is a way for someone not to take responsibility for their outdated views. I think you would be well in your right to be hurt, angry and upset if someone would outcast you because of your faith. I think that it's a shame that you feel that way about people who have a different sexuality and while you are entitled to your view obviously people are going to challenge it when it's said.