American mass shooting thread

[sl1k]

Lol I'm not gonna try be PC here, it is what it is. And I think what he said is more likely to prevent others from being inspired than to tell them their values are fucked up.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Lol I'm not gonna try be PC here, it is what it is. And I think what he said is more likely to prevent others from being inspired than to tell them their values are fucked up.

No it's not. It's something that contributes to a climate where it's OK to hate LGBT people so long as you don't act on it yourself. Which of course isn't that far away from hating LGBT people but actually doing something about it.

Like, homonationalism can get to absolute fuck but, by the same token, so can anyone who attempts to defend their (or anyone else's) homophobia by hiding behind religion.

 

[sl1k]

You're not being practical here mate. The family structure in Islamic culture ain't changing for no one. There is an inherent homophobia in Abraham religions yes, personally I'd want Muslims to go down the path of 'we adhere to a hetero lifestyle' rather than ' gays are bad' sort of narrative.

 

[blade1889]

You're not being practical here mate. The family structure in Islamic culture ain't changing for no one. There is an inherent homophobia in Abraham religions yes, personally I'd want Muslims to go down the path of 'we adhere to a hetero lifestyle' rather than ' gays are bad' sort of narrative.

Which is inherently a s*** route to take. You have no idea how much harm being brought up in that kind of environment does, you cant alter who you love.

Repressed homosexuals and heteronormative narratives kill.

Talking of which... (really!? Is this a satire article?)
http://usuncut.com/news/orlando-gunman-pulse-regular/

 

[NorfolkWomble]

Nah, it's a fucking awful thing to say. On any day, but not least when 50-odd people have been killed by your son.

"Well, they shouldn't be put-to-death" is a much better statement than its negation but it still feeds into a worldview of a society that largely regards LGBT people as something to (at best) be "tolerated" by straight society - it's still a positioning of straight as normal and anything that isn't 100% straight as weird/deviant which is fucked up.

If the reports that this man visited the club a few times and was confused about his sexuality are true then the attitudes towards homosexuals in religion are entirely responsible for this. Self-loathing spurred on by the teachings of Imams or preachers or whoever would have fed into this homophobia without a doubt.

 

[silkyman]

You're not being practical here mate. The family structure in Islamic culture ain't changing for no one. There is an inherent homophobia in Abraham religions yes, personally I'd want Muslims to go down the path of 'we adhere to a hetero lifestyle' rather than ' gays are bad' sort of narrative.

So there are no gay Muslims?

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

If the reports that this man visited the club a few times and was confused about his sexuality are true then the attitudes towards homosexuals in religion are entirely responsible for this. Self-loathing spurred on by the teachings of Imams or preachers or whoever would have fed into this homophobia without a doubt.

ffs

Nothing to do with ready access to firearms. Nothing to do with consuming reams of toxic, entitled masculinity (and how that intersects with gun culture). Nothing to do with wider homophobia/heteronormativity in American society.

Nah, religion is "entirely responsible".

 

[sl1k]

So there are no gay Muslims?

Imo, no, but who's a Muslim and who is not isn't for me to judge or decide. Religion is between the individual and God. Whatever gives you peace, the drive for knowledge and fulfilment go for it so long as it doesn't harm or impede on anyone.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You're basically painting a picture of Muslims and Islamic culture that would make a ban on Muslim immigration seem quite logical sl1k. I'm fairly certain you're wrong however. Muslims will change their views on homosexuality. There must be loads of closeted Muslim men out there gagging for cock and sooner or later they're going be able to express that openly. Islam will be watered down and liberalized just like Christianity has been given enough time, assuming immigration is brought under control.

 

[blade1889]

Imo, no, but who's a Muslim and who is not isn't for me to judge or decide. Religion is between the individual and God. Whatever gives you peace, the drive for knowledge and fulfilment go for it so long as it doesn't harm or impede on anyone.

Like teaching against homosexuality? Like saying you cant be gay and a muslim?

Sure, that does no harm.

 

[NorfolkWomble]

ffs

Nothing to do with ready access to firearms. Nothing to do with consuming reams of toxic, entitled masculinity (and how that intersects with gun culture). Nothing to do with wider homophobia/heteronormativity in American society.

Nah, religion is "entirely responsible".

You can't solve the access to firearms problem. You cannot just remove millions of guns from the street in an instant, this man may well have got through any background checks.

Religious hatred of gay people is the overwhelming factor in homophobia in society, that isn't something I think you can dispute. As the levels of religious observance have gone down in many countries, the levels of LGBT and civil rights afforded to women etc have gone up.

Here is a nice video for you to watch-

Where do you think those kids get taught that shit? In the mosque. Where do you think Christian kids get taught similar shit? In the fundamentalist American Churches. Why are you surprised then that people want to emphasize the link between hating gays and religion?

 

[sl1k]

You're basically painting a picture of Muslims and Islamic culture that would make a ban on Muslim immigration seem quite logical sl1k. I'm fairly certain you're wrong however. Muslims will change their views on homosexuality. There must be loads of closeted Muslim men out there gagging for cock and sooner or later they're going be able to express that openly. Islam will be watered down and liberalized just like Christianity has been given enough time, assuming immigration is brought under control.

What you're suggesting isn't watering down, it's changing fundamental philosophy, which isn't gonna happen I'm sorry to say and if it does it's not the brand of Islam I'll be a part of.

I wouldn't treat a gay person different to anyone else in any given environment, why the hell should I be obliged to change values, beliefs and scripture.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

So if you had a gay son you'd treat them exactly the same as a straight son? You'd let them bring their boyfriend home, attend their gay marriage etc?

Commendable if so, but I'm sceptical that that behaviour would be representative of an entire community that sees homosexuality as a bad thing.

 

[sl1k]

So if you had a gay son you'd treat them exactly the same as a straight son? You'd let them bring their boyfriend home, attend their gay marriage etc?

Commendable if so, but I'm sceptical that that behaviour would be representative of an entire community that sees homosexuality as a bad thing.

I couldn't say how I'd deal with having a gay son, it's very conflicting for me personally. He'd always have my unconditional love, but would i be inviting them (as in him with his partner) round for dinner n that? Probably not if I'm to be totally honest. My son will always be my son, though.

 

[spireite]

I couldn't say how I'd deal with having a gay son, it's very conflicting for me personally. He'd always have my unconditional love, but would i be inviting them (as in him with his partner) round for dinner n that? Probably not if I'm to be totally honest. My son will always be my son, though.

Woah.

 

[silkyman]

Imo, no, but who's a Muslim and who is not isn't for me to judge or decide. Religion is between the individual and God. Whatever gives you peace, the drive for knowledge and fulfilment go for it so long as it doesn't harm or impede on anyone.

So a lad who is born into a muslim family, is brought up muslim, attends mosque, observes Ramadan and everything else, stops being a muslim the moment he realises that he is gay? Or is it when he acts on it? It's biological, it's not a choice.

 

[Abertawe]

I believe followers of Islam to be more inherently homophobic than the other two religions personally. I'm not suggesting that it's narrative is any moemor intolerant than Judaism or Christianity, rather that they have a far higher ratio of hardliners. The prevalence of homophobia within the West Indian & West African communities is way above healthy levels also. Immigrant communities of hard-line countries which have an authoritarian adherence to a story book as an actual basis in which to live your life by are going have their problems.

The issue is most of these countries from which intolerance is stirred by religion are the relics of colonialism. That suggests somewhere down the line we have to apportion a share of the blame onto ourselves. I'll always believe that what gets broken can be fixed though. If we can engage in positive dialogue with some of these countries and bring about a more ample harmony then perhaps we can set about eroding it at source. It's no good just lambasting the likes of Uganda and cutting off ties. Money is power. The incentive of increased trade and the odd bribe to the right person would be enough to allow the seeds of change to grow. We're sick at selling weapons to these people so how difficult can it be to implement social conditioning on their citizens. Religion is just that anyway. The US has managed to condition some of its own citizens in the name making money so underdeveloped nations would stand no chance of resisting. Once you got the minds you can influence a change.

It appears we can file this one under mentally ill. Religion will have played it's part but it's not the cause. This c*** was no IS fighter that's for sure but he's still caused horror. A system whereby a mentally ill person with a history of violence and blurred thinking can purchase a gun is just repulsive. This money at all costs strand of capitalism resident in the US is evil and is the real monster at play.

 

[silkyman]

Like teaching against homosexuality? Like saying you cant be gay and a muslim?

Sure, that does no harm.

You're also not allowed to stop being a muslim. So, the penalty for being gay is, technically, death. If you are gay, you can't be a muslim, and the penalty for stopping being a muslim is also, technically, death.

You're right. There's absolutely no room there for massive existential agony for anyone. None at all.

 

[silkyman]

Just so we're clear that we are equal opportunities here...

 

[silkyman]

What you're suggesting isn't watering down, it's changing fundamental philosophy, which isn't gonna happen I'm sorry to say and if it does it's not the brand of Islam I'll be a part of.

I wouldn't treat a gay person different to anyone else in any given environment, why the hell should I be obliged to change values, beliefs and scripture.

Why would what other people do with their genitals have any impact on you though? No one is forcing you to suck any cocks, so what does it matter?

 

[sl1k]

I specifically said it's not for me to say who's Muslim and who's not, what people do is their business.

And I'm done with the q and a.

 

[Pagnell]

I specifically said it's not for me to say who's Muslim and who's not.

You claimed that in your opinion there are no gay Muslim men or women, effectively stating that in your view you can't be gay and be Muslim.

 

[Abertawe]

The guy is entitled to his opinion so why the berating line of questioning? It's obvious his thoughts are the result of his personal beliefs of which he's entitled to possess. He's not being offensive or even loud with his views so leave off trying to challenge him, it's verging on summit nasty tbh.

 

[sl1k]

Pissing me off, tbh.

 

[NorfolkWomble]

Why are personal views which are religious exempt though? If someone on this forum stood up and said I love the KKK then they would be rounded upon. Why does religion need or deserve an exemption from that? It is a belief system just the same.

 

[NorfolkWomble]

'Summit nasty' is holding homophobic views. Challenging them is an obligation.

 

[spireite]

The guy is entitled to his opinion so why the berating line of questioning? It's obvious his thoughts are the result of his personal beliefs of which he's entitled to possess. He's not being offensive or even loud with his views so leave off trying to challenge him, it's verging on summit nasty tbh.

Hang on a minute... This is serious stuff and needs addressing. Noone has been offensive or 'loud' with him either, but if you say contentious shit, expected to be questioned...

 

[Abertawe]

Why are personal views which are religious exempt though? If someone on this forum stood up and said I love the KKK then they would be rounded upon. Why does religion need or deserve an exemption from that? It is a belief system just the same.

Drawing comparison between the KKK & Islam, way to go c***.

I shouldn't use such vulgar language. You're just a sheep. You're conditioned to think the way you do. Continue to castigate religion & muslims if you want, you're falling hook line & sinker for the ploy that the powers that be orchestrate. Perhaps you'd be wise to take a step back and take in what's really going on. There are powers that be controlling every facet of your life, social engineering and a continued movement to dissipate human liberty and erode rights so the grip of power over mankind can continue to grow to unparalleled levels.

But yeah, carry on hating on your brother because he isn't subscribing to your own views. To combine the KKK with being Muslim makes you a racist. You do know racism and the essence of divide & rule was the invention of the powers that be. Isn't it about time you started thinking for yourself?

Religion didn't cause this atrocity so the very fact we've digressed onto Islam speaks volumes as to people's mindsets. You really are blind. Connect the pieces. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Feinberg

 

[blade1889]

Johnny Todd? Is that you Johnny?

 

[silkyman]

Ok. So homophobia is ok as long as we don't say anything nasty about religion.

Gotcha.

Meanwhile.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/14/u...-armed-person/0517PMStoryLink&linkId=25533877