Athletic Article: League One and Two Seasons to be abandoned next week

[dannyc5]

You beat Shrewsbury, Accrington and Blackpool lol. Get a grip. Your PPG post January was worse than pre January.

Interesting that you know for certain a relegation play off proposal would have been turned down. Though to be fair, a play off proposal does sound ridiculous when compared to a PPG model with a fairly wide margin of error gleamed from a 3 year median that doesn’t differentiate between relegation and promotion places.

Ps. There may have been some sarcasm contained in this post.

 

[Huntsman94]

You beat Shrewsbury, Accrington and Blackpool lol. Get a grip. Your PPG post January was worse than pre January.

Interesting that you know for certain a relegation play off proposal would have been turned down. Though to be fair, a play off proposal does sound ridiculous when compared to a PPG model with a fairly wide margin of error gleamed from a 3 year median that doesn’t differentiate between relegation and promotion places.

Ps. There may have been some sarcasm contained in this post.

Christ alive. Get a grip on what? We've said our form has improved which is true and 3 of our next 4 were against sides below those teams you've just laughed at. We've said James Vaughan has slotted nicely into our team and is one of a few signings that were starting to make a difference which is true.

Of course it would have been turned down. If you listened to literally any of the Owners that have been in the EFL meetings from League One, they've all said that playing football has been out of the question pretty much ever since the first meeting due to the financial implications (aside from the group of playoff hunting teams that grouped together). The gap in finances of the clubs in the top half of the league and the bottom half is huge. Of course our proposal isn't perfect. But neither is PPG. It's each to their own on what is the most fair option and what is the least fair option and, funnily enough, alongside other proposals from other clubs, that is what will be getting voted on today.

But whilst we had no certainty of staying up, we had every chance of doing so which is why getting relegated by 0.04 points is going to be a right kick in the teeth. But you're clearly enjoying seeing us go down via this route so you carry on lad. All the best in League One next season.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

So looks like relegation from League Two to the National League will be happening then. But I wonder who'll actually go down out of Stevenage and Macclesfield? Seems the EFL are doing all they can not to have another repeat of a Bury situation (and Macc do look the likeliest club to go bust in the top four leagues). But I still expect Stevenage to drop.

Whatever happens, we need to get this sorted quickly and focus on getting each clubs finances in order. Many have withheld their release lists until this announcement is made, once this is finally sorted, we can take a bigger step towards getting the house in order (until the big L1 clubs moan about salary caps at least) and looking at a return to league football, potentially with fans, in the Autumn.

 

[dannyc5]

Christ alive. Get a grip on what? We've said our form has improved which is true and 3 of our next 4 were against sides below those teams you've just laughed at. We've said James Vaughan has slotted nicely into our team and is one of a few signings that were starting to make a difference which is true.

Of course it would have been turned down. If you listened to literally any of the Owners that have been in the EFL meetings from League One, they've all said that playing football has been out of the question pretty much ever since the first meeting due to the financial implications (aside from the group of playoff hunting teams that grouped together). The gap in finances of the clubs in the top half of the league and the bottom half is huge. Of course our proposal isn't perfect. But neither is PPG. It's each to their own on what is the most fair option and what is the least fair option and, funnily enough, alongside other proposals from other clubs, that is what will be getting voted on today.

But whilst we had no certainty of staying up, we had every chance of doing so which is why getting relegated by 0.04 points is going to be a right kick in the teeth. But you're clearly enjoying seeing us go down via this route so you carry on lad. All the best in League One next season.

I thought you said you were done replying? You implied that you were personally needed by Tranmere to help get them promoted or something.

Also, what are you talking about? Yes a lot of the owners said they didn’t want to finish the season. I’m not saying finish the season. I am saying it would be fair for you to be given the chance to enter the play offs in some capacity. I envisaged you playing the winner of the League 2 playoffs in a one off game at a neutral venue. Not sure why, for example (and I am plucking names out of the sky here), Gillingham or Burton would be against that type of proposal. Of course it may have got voted down. But as a one off measure in a time of crisis, it may have gained some traction. Certainly, IMO, more traction than the Palios proposal.

I take no pleasure seeing anyone relegated. I couldn’t particularly care less about any club apart from my own. I hold no grudges against any team, including the likes of Port Vale, Chester etc. I follow Crewe, and what others do in terms of league position is of no concern to me. I don’t even have an issue with Tranmere putting forward an amendment like this. What I do have an issue with is the nonsense, the lies and the myths put forward by the club and it’s fans. That somehow they are doing it for the integrity of football, and all true football fans agree with their stance, and Palios would have put forward this proposal regardless of league position blah blah blah. Nonsense. Be honest. You are doing it out of self interest. And that’s fine. Understandable even.

That’s what has wound me up. Not an inherent anti Tranmere bias or any nonsense like that.

*Edit* When I talk about Gillingham and Burton, I mean clubs with nothing to play for and who a proposal like that would not effect. So around 30, maybe slightly more in Leagues 1 and 2.

 

[Huntsman94]

So looks like relegation from League Two to the National League will be happening then. But I wonder who'll actually go down out of Stevenage and Macclesfield? Seems the EFL are doing all they can not to have another repeat of a Bury situation (and Macc do look the likeliest club to go bust in the top four leagues). But I still expect Stevenage to drop.

Whatever happens, we need to get this sorted quickly and focus on getting each clubs finances in order. Many have withheld their release lists until this announcement is made, once this is finally sorted, we can take a bigger step towards getting the house in order (until the big L1 clubs moan about salary caps at least) and looking at a return to league football, potentially with fans, in the Autumn.

The way this has all been dealt with, as with the situations at Bury and Bolton, I couldn't see the EFL organising a piss up in a brewery!

You're right though, those issues need addressing quickly otherwise you'll see more and more clubs go to the wall. We've been a big advocate for it and the sooner it's done the better.

 

[chipmunx]

so - today's meeting is due to start in under an hour... are we expecting updates after each vote or are we expecting to get all the info after all the separate votes have taken place?

 

[Luke Imp]

So looks like relegation from League Two to the National League will be happening then. But I wonder who'll actually go down out of Stevenage and Macclesfield? Seems the EFL are doing all they can not to have another repeat of a Bury situation (and Macc do look the likeliest club to go bust in the top four leagues). But I still expect Stevenage to drop.

Whatever happens, we need to get this sorted quickly and focus on getting each clubs finances in order. Many have withheld their release lists until this announcement is made, once this is finally sorted, we can take a bigger step towards getting the house in order (until the big L1 clubs moan about salary caps at least) and looking at a return to league football, potentially with fans, in the Autumn.

Our amendment, which centres around how to apply PPG when a team has had a points deduction would see Macclesfield safe even if they get more points deducted and relegate Stevenage either way because the PPG would be based on points won rather than points after deduction(s).

so - today's meeting is due to start in under an hour... are we expecting updates after each vote or are we expecting to get all the info after all the separate votes have taken place?

The main meeting/vote was scheduled for 5.30pm, I think. The first one, 10.30am, is the amendments prior to the vote so I suspect we'll have one update later.

 

[chipmunx]

Our amendment, which centres around how to apply PPG when a team has had a points deduction would see Macclesfield safe even if they get more points deducted and relegate Stevenage either way because the PPG would be based on points won rather than points after deduction(s).

The main meeting/vote was scheduled for 5.30pm, I think. The first one, 10.30am, is the amendments prior to the vote so I suspect we'll have one update later.

I sense that there may be a few dummies thrown out of prams when the results are announced - particularly in L1

 

[Luke Imp]

I think they've already been thrown out!

 

[Greenacres]

Hopefully after today we will know exactly where we all stand, so clubs can move on with a bit of certainty to face what lies ahead...but this is football, where decisions made often result in more questions and lengthy challenge from those who don't like the answers.

 

[Luke Imp]

After today, there's then the small matter of when the next season starts, transfer windows and salary caps so a few more meetings to go yet!

 

[AdamStag]

I think they've already been thrown out!

Do you mean in the Cambridgeshire area?

 

[chipmunx]

Do you mean in the Cambridgeshire area?

And the Wirral....

 

[AdamStag]

These decisions should have been made 2/3 weeks ago and the EFL should have had the balls to have made the decision themselves and lay it down.

They’ve allowed the farce of allowing league 2 chairman to make a decision over relegation then basically had to overrule them, they’ve allowed chairman from Sunderland, Ipswich, Peterborough and tranmere (though I feel for the latter) to have their say and try and change the rules when they needed to be more authoritarian and just tell them how it is.

I’m hopeful there is a way forward now. I’d prefer the season to be delayed until October/November if possible for league 1 and 2 clubs, give as much time as possible to have a season where you’ve got games with as many fans as possible. Obviously it wouldn’t run like the championship season would do and might overlap the euros but it could work financially

 

[AdamStag]

Show me please if it's well documented.

Oh don’t play dumb, it doesn’t suit you.

You’re saying that he’s not made himself look like a class A tit through all this!?

 

[WhiteRussian]

Our amendment, which centres around how to apply PPG when a team has had a points deduction would see Macclesfield safe even if they get more points deducted and relegate Stevenage either way because the PPG would be based on points won rather than points after deduction(s).

What's the logic behind that amendment? Surely if they have had points deducted for whatever offence it should be carried through all aspects including PPG calculations?

 

[chipmunx]

What's the logic behind that amendment? Surely if they have had points deducted for whatever offence it should be carried through all aspects including PPG calculations?

no - if you were to get a 3 point deduction (from winning a match) where you had an ineligible player that could end up as more than 3 points by that logic - which would totally be wrong.

 

[Indian Dan]

These decisions should have been made 2/3 weeks ago and the EFL should have had the balls to have made the decision themselves and lay it down.

They’ve allowed the farce of allowing league 2 chairman to make a decision over relegation then basically had to overrule them, they’ve allowed chairman from Sunderland, Ipswich, Peterborough and tranmere (though I feel for the latter) to have their say and try and change the rules when they needed to be more authoritarian and just tell them how it is.

I’m hopeful there is a way forward now. I’d prefer the season to be delayed until October/November if possible for league 1 and 2 clubs, give as much time as possible to have a season where you’ve got games with as many fans as possible. Obviously it wouldn’t run like the championship season would do and might overlap the euros but it could work financially

I’m sure all the EFL has done is to protect themselves from any possible legal action.

If the clubs themselves have voted democratically on a particular course of action there can’t really be any blowback from certain clubs/chairmen - I’m looking at you MacAnthony and Palios

 

[Si Robin]

Our local journo is reporting that the playoffs in League 2 are set to be played on 18th and 22nd June with 6pm and 8pm kick-offs so as to not clash with any Prem games.

 

[AdamStag]

I’m sure all the EFL has done is to protect themselves from any possible legal action.

If the clubs themselves have voted democratically on a particular course of action there can’t really be any blowback from certain clubs/chairmen - I’m looking at you MacAnthony and Palios

Yeah that’s fair, and I know the idiot chairman in league 1 haven’t done them any favours at all. Still, I the EFL is pretty pathetic in general, it hasn’t shone itself in glory here, and even dating back to how it handled the whole bury and Bolton situation was shambolic

 

[Indian Dan]

I know I’ve banged on about Tranmere, but tbh I’d probably be the same if we got the shitty end of the stick. The more I thought about it the more I thought a 25 club L1 would be fair.

 

[Luke Imp]

What's the logic behind that amendment? Surely if they have had points deducted for whatever offence it should be carried through all aspects including PPG calculations?

The deductions are then reapplied. In Bolton's case, their PPG would be based on 'won' points, and then their total points would have the deduction taken from it.

So this season, if Bolton's PPG is done on their current total it's 19 (or just under) but the more accurate way sees their total at 23.

"So for example Bolton had a 12 point deduction. Lets say the season ended at the half way stage and Bolton had attained 14 points on the field. At that stage they would have 2 points in the table (14 - 12).

As per the EFL calculation Bolton would have a PPG of 4, which is illogical because it means they would have got a 24 point deduction instead of a fixed 12 point deduction.

The correct way to do the calculation would be 14 * 2 = 28 - 12 = 16."

I think I've perhaps misinterpreted it in Macclesfield's case, it probably aides them as well, but not to the extent I thought it would.

 

[Chris FGR]

I know I’ve banged on about Tranmere, but tbh I’d probably be the same if we got the shitty end of the stick. The more I thought about it the more I thought a 25 club L1 would be fair.

Either you have promotion and relegation or you don't. Can't pick and choose to benefit certain clubs.

 

[Blue Lion]

The deductions are then reapplied. In Bolton's case, their PPG would be based on 'won' points, and then their total points would have the deduction taken from it.

So this season, if Bolton's PPG is done on their current total it's 19 (or just under) but the more accurate way sees their total at 23.

"So for example Bolton had a 12 point deduction. Lets say the season ended at the half way stage and Bolton had attained 14 points on the field. At that stage they would have 2 points in the table (14 - 12).

As per the EFL calculation Bolton would have a PPG of 4, which is illogical because it means they would have got a 24 point deduction instead of a fixed 12 point deduction.

The correct way to do the calculation would be 14 * 2 = 28 - 12 = 16."

I think I've perhaps misinterpreted it in Macclesfield's case, it probably aides them as well, but not to the extent I thought it would.

Yeah this is my preferred stance. Points deductions should be a fixed amount or else it undermines the process that went into deciding the size of the deduction. Otherwise you'd end up with effectively having "points deductions per game" which is inevitably a bigger punishment than what was originally given.

I just assumed it went without saying that this is the way they would calculate it. Or has it been rejected?

 

[AdamStag]

I know I’ve banged on about Tranmere, but tbh I’d probably be the same if we got the shitty end of the stick. The more I thought about it the more I thought a 25 club L1 would be fair.

I suppose it’s a case of potentially going round in circles but I’ve a lot more sympathy for tranmere than I do those who’ve just missed out on the playoffs.

However, I can’t see them allowing tranmere to stop up just for the precedent it would set (rightly or wrongly) as others would want the rules bending for them also.

I can’t see how the EFL would be able to legitimately argue allowing “special status” in changing the rules for one club while not doing so for others who are chasing the playoffs.

 

[Luke Imp]

Yeah this is my preferred stance. Points deductions should be a fixed amount or else it undermines the process that went into deciding the size of the deduction. Otherwise you'd end up with effectively having "points deductions per game" which is inevitably a bigger punishment than what was originally given.

I just assumed it went without saying that this is the way they would calculate it. Or has it been rejected?

Nope, it seems the EFL's framework was a straight PPG without taking deductions into account. Only Lincoln noticed the error (or flaw).

Was being voted on this morning along with the other amendments.

 

[chipmunx]

Nope, it seems the EFL's framework was a straight PPG without taking deductions into account. Only Lincoln noticed the error (or flaw).

Was being voted on this morning along with the other amendments.

even the NL rules and regs had covered that....

 

[AdamStag]

even the NL rules and regs had covered that....

What, so Bolton’s points dedication wouldn’t count? How do you calculate that. Do you pro rata the points deduction for how much of the season has been played?

Given what’s gone on with bury, Macclesfield and Bolton coronavirus couldn’t have picked a season worse to come and fuck up!

 

[chipmunx]

What, so Bolton’s points dedication wouldn’t count? How do you calculate that. Do you pro rata the points deduction for how much of the season has been played?

Given what’s gone on with bury, Macclesfield and Bolton coronavirus couldn’t have picked a season worse to come and fuck up!

12.2 At the end of the Playing Season of each competition a table will be compiled showing the playing record of each Club in each division of the Competition. The playing record of each Club must include any points deduction made by the Competition or by the FA and in any situation where points per game are calculated the calculation will be made after taking into account the deduction of any such points.

 

[Blue Lion]

So using the EFL's method, if the season had ended before Bolton had got past zero points, they would end up with a negative PPG? If you extrapolate it over the whole season, they would end up with less points than they already had, effectively giving them another deduction.