Attacks in Paris + Belgium

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

but but PC idiots here are claiming it has nothing to do wit the refugee situation....

again, who said that?

 

[silkyman]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-attacks-teams-extremists-france-prosecutor/

A U.S. intelligence official told CBS News that a name and picture were recovered from the Syrian passport and the individual was not known to intelligence officials.

However, a U.S. intelligence official told CBS News the Syrian passport might be fake. The official said the passport did not contain the correct numbers for a legitimate Syrian passport and the picture did not match the name.

 

[silkyman]

And the Egyptian was a victim.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCon...assport-found-at-Paris-stadium-belongs-t.aspx

 

[yellow]

Place de la République has been evacuated, rumours of gunfire..

 

[Abertawe]

False

 

[Nath]

It was firecrackers.

 

[silkyman]

There'll be a few of these... Even a car backfiring is going to cause panic.

 

[Gashead]

Just seen the idiots who blew themselves up were turned away from the Stade De France on Friday night. Not even worth thinking about the loss if they hadn't been stopped.

 

[DarkSithLord]

Confirmed Death Toll is now 132.

 

[HertsWolf]

All the idiots claiming this tragedy had nothing to do with refugee situation are pretty quiet now huh.

No, they are not. It has nothing to do with the refugee crisis. You are confusing cause and effect. Refugees are fleeing a relentless, unmitigated nightmare in their own country (or countries). Many of the terrorists are part of the cause of that nightmare.

Yes, some terrorists will be in among the refugees. Possibly almost as many as the homegrown terrorists who you went to school with or who worked alongside you for all these years.

 

[HertsWolf]

I wonder, had fighting-age British males fled to South America while we were fighting the Nazis in a battle to decide the fate of the nation, how would they be thought of? What would we call them? Perhaps some of the names that Syrians who stayed in Syria are calling these refugees today...

I wonder had Nazi Germany simply executed every prisoner and most of the male population of different ethnic groups whether we would have won the war. I would suggest that most who remain in Syria - whatever flag hangs on a flagpost nearby - probably have neither the time nor the willpower to consider much about those who have left.

 

[mowgli]

BBC reporting a terrorist has been found alive ikn Paris but wounded and taken to hospital

No, they are not. It has nothing to do with the refugee crisis. You are confusing cause and effect. Refugees are fleeing a relentless, unmitigated nightmare in their own country (or countries). Many of the terrorists are part of the cause of that nightmare.

Yes, some terrorists will be in among the refugees. Possibly almost as many as the homegrown terrorists who you went to school with or who worked alongside you for all these years.

One terrorist is more than enough. How can those who man our borders tell the difference between refugees and terrorists who want to cause us harm? Surely it's best to be safe than sorry before we see an atrocity like Paris happen in The UK. While i feel sorry for genuine refugees we must make sure our citizens are safe before letting in people we know nothing about. Surely the government have a duty to it's own people first before anyone else.
I have no problem with SOME people fleeing war zones but we cannot take risks on their behalf at the detriment of our citizens. No doubt i'll be slaughtered by some on here but that's my view on things as i see it. No doubt if i still lived on the edge of London i would be more worried than i am now living in Somerset. We all have our own views on what's happened but i feel the point scoring and abuse solves nothing and if anything divides us which is not what we need right now. I respect anyone's opinion as that's what they believe i just wish others would respect my opinion as it's what i believe.I'm not a right wing nutjob far from it but i don't want to see an atrocity like 7/7 happen again.

 

[Blitzballer]

well said , fully agree mowgli

 

[HertsWolf]

BBC reporting a terrorist has been found alive ikn Paris but wounded and taken to hospital

One terrorist is more than enough. How can those who man our borders tell the difference between refugees and terrorists who want to cause us harm? Surely it's best to be safe than sorry before we see an atrocity like Paris happen in The UK. While i feel sorry for genuine refugees we must make sure our citizens are safe before letting in people we know nothing about. Surely the government have a duty to it's own people first before anyone else.
I have no problem with SOME people fleeing war zones but we cannot take risks on their behalf at the detriment of our citizens. No doubt i'll be slaughtered by some on here but that's my view on things as i see it. No doubt if i still lived on the edge of London i would be more worried than i am now living in Somerset. We all have our own views on what's happened but i feel the point scoring and abuse solves nothing and if anything divides us which is not what we need right now. I respect anyone's opinion as that's what they believe i just wish others would respect my opinion as it's what i believe.I'm not a right wing nutjob far from it but i don't want to see an atrocity like 7/7 happen again.

Many of the terrorists responsible for atrocities in the past have been born and brought up in the country where they murdered people. The threat is as much from within as from the outside. How do you intend to be better "safe than sorry"? Anyone can be a terrorist.

The reason many parts of the world are war zones are partly because of the actions of our own governments in the West for decades. We have been arming groups in Africa, the Middle East and Asia for decades because we thought that our enemy's enemy was our friend; turns out that our enemy's enemy is often our enemy too. This is a lesson politicians and the military establishment have been slow to learn.

It is interesting to note that you don't want to see "an atrocity like 7/7 happen again". In fact, an atrocity like 7/7 is happening every single day across many countries in the world, including where they are fleeing from. Innocent people are confronting evil and terror in their daily lives. These people are as important as "us" in Britain, even though they may have different coloured skin or speak no English. (I note we aren't debating the attack in Kenya very actively).

Solutions are needed that respect the different cultures and perspectives and yet that also recognise that we should show compassion towards those who are less fortunate.

In the same way we never banned every Irish person from the UK during The Troubles because, incredible thought I think it still is to the editors of some British newspapers, not all Irish people are terrorists.
We are in grave danger of allowing the terrorists to win if we become militaristic states, determined not to be cowed by foreigners, suspending civil liberties and stepping our society back towards medieval levels of xenophobia. I think Britain, and Europe, is better than that.

 

[spireite]

BBC reporting a terrorist has been found alive ikn Paris but wounded and taken to hospital

One terrorist is more than enough. How can those who man our borders tell the difference between refugees and terrorists who want to cause us harm? Surely it's best to be safe than sorry before we see an atrocity like Paris happen in The UK. While i feel sorry for genuine refugees we must make sure our citizens are safe before letting in people we know nothing about. Surely the government have a duty to it's own people first before anyone else.
I have no problem with SOME people fleeing war zones but we cannot take risks on their behalf at the detriment of our citizens. No doubt i'll be slaughtered by some on here but that's my view on things as i see it. No doubt if i still lived on the edge of London i would be more worried than i am now living in Somerset. We all have our own views on what's happened but i feel the point scoring and abuse solves nothing and if anything divides us which is not what we need right now. I respect anyone's opinion as that's what they believe i just wish others would respect my opinion as it's what i believe.I'm not a right wing nutjob far from it but i don't want to see an atrocity like 7/7 happen again.

I guess it's a balance between risking taking a hit, and leaving an entire nation of people to a horrible fate. The unfortunate thing is that there's pretty much no way to sift the flow of people for threats thoroughly. Whilst we're thinking about what 'might' happen though, people are dying every day and that 'is' happening so we do have a moral duty of care to look after people in need. I think we are taking people from actual refugee camps in Syria (according to DC's announcements a month or so ago) rather than on rickety boats arriving from Greece or wherever else so we 'should' be a bit safer, especially considering there's a big body of water between us and mainland Europe

 

[Aber gas]

BBC reporting a terrorist has been found alive ikn Paris but wounded and taken to hospital

One terrorist is more than enough. How can those who man our borders tell the difference between refugees and terrorists who want to cause us harm? Surely it's best to be safe than sorry before we see an atrocity like Paris happen in The UK. While i feel sorry for genuine refugees we must make sure our citizens are safe before letting in people we know nothing about. Surely the government have a duty to it's own people first before anyone else.
I have no problem with SOME people fleeing war zones but we cannot take risks on their behalf at the detriment of our citizens. No doubt i'll be slaughtered by some on here but that's my view on things as i see it. No doubt if i still lived on the edge of London i would be more worried than i am now living in Somerset. We all have our own views on what's happened but i feel the point scoring and abuse solves nothing and if anything divides us which is not what we need right now. I respect anyone's opinion as that's what they believe i just wish others would respect my opinion as it's what i believe.I'm not a right wing nutjob far from it but i don't want to see an atrocity like 7/7 happen again.

I'm not going to slaughter you mowgli. I know you're a good guy and far from a right wing nutjob but I can't agree with you on this issue. I think it's wrong to deny people in need on the basis of there perhaps being terrorists amongst their number. If we sacrifice our humanity, empathy and tolerance in the name of dubious "security" then the terrorists have won.
What I find ugly about this debate isn't the genuine fears and concerns of people( although I disagree ) but the hijacking of a terrible event to promote prejudiced, ignorant and yeah racist views. Again I'm not including you here.
Hope you are well and my post has come across as intended.

 

[Dave-Vale]

I hope George W Bush and Tony Blair are hanging their greedy little heads in shame over this.

 

[mnb089mnb]

7/7 and 9/11 happened before the "migrant crisis.

Refugees is not really the major issue with regards to these bombings/shootings as far as I can tell.

When those people were fleeing the concert venue should we have locked the doors just in case a terrorist got out? I'm not sure we should have.

 

[Christian Slater]

The refugees are pointed at because they're quantifiable. People feel the need to recognise a solution to a direct cause in an attempt to solve a problem. Unfortunately, there is no direct action you can take. The damage has been done, people hold a grudge against the West and will continue to do so. The best thing we have to combat it is our intelligence agencies, of whom are probably letting known threats in to monitor more closely.

What won't help is people turning against innocent people because of where they're from or what ideology they believe in. Neither do you panic and change your core beliefs through fear. That's exactly why they call it 'terrorism'.

 

[silkyman]

7/7 and 9/11 happened before the "migrant crisis.

Refugees is not really the major issue with regards to these bombings/shootings as far as I can tell.

When those people were fleeing the concert venue should we have locked the doors just in case a terrorist got out? I'm not sure we should have.

7/7 bombers were all British born. The Charlie Hebdo gunmen were French born. With serious doubts about the authenticity of the Syrian passport, and the Egyptian 'suspect' now believed to be an innocent bystander and victim, it's looking like many, if not most, if not all of these murderers were also French, or French residing in Belgium.

All of this is still up in the air, but plays nicely into the hands of the 'CLOSE THE BORDERS' brigade, which is, you suspect, what ISIS actually want.

 

[silkyman]

When those people were fleeing the concert venue should we have locked the doors just in case a terrorist got out? I'm not sure we should have.

That's a fucking great analogy, by the way.

 

[Bobbin']

France have just dropped 20 bombs on Raqqa.

 

[DarkSithLord]

Daniel Sandford ‏@BBCDanielS 31m31 minutes ago

AFP are reporting a "massive bombardment" of the IS stronghold of Raqqa tonight by French jets, sourced to the Defence Ministry

 

[AFCB_Mark]

One of the people on my Facebook who has signed and promoted the petition for shutting our boarders, is himself a Polish immigrant. Which I thought was interesting....

I guess it'll have to be debated in parliament now, which in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. It'll make our politicians state a coherent, workable, measured and logical response. Hopefully.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

great so france have likely just blown up a ton of civilians in response to the death of a ton of civilians. the coalition bombing campaign has been steady, and relentless. every time a target is found it is extensively vetted and analysed and then bombed. if u are suddenly blowing the shit out of something that's either because a) you've found a huge new stache of intelligence or b) you aren't vetting the targets as extensively as u should and u just want to blow shit up. guess which has likely happened here. if life in raqqa wasn't shit enough already

 

[Blitzballer]

 

[Aber gas]

One of the people on my Facebook who has signed and promoted the petition for shutting our boarders, is himself a Polish immigrant. Which I thought was interesting....

I guess it'll have to be debated in parliament now, which in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. It'll make our politicians state a coherent, workable, measured and logical response. Hopefully.

A response to what though? Now is not the time to have a considered debate about immigration and asylum. The fact that parliament will be having a debate about these issues in the wake of the attacks in Paris just shows how effectively these issues have been tied together by the opportunist right.

 

[Bobbin']

great so france have likely just blown up a ton of civilians in response to the death of a ton of civilians. the coalition bombing campaign has been steady, and relentless. every time a target is found it is extensively vetted and analysed and then bombed. if u are suddenly blowing the shit out of something that's either because a) you've found a huge new stache of intelligence or b) you aren't vetting the targets as extensively as u should and u just want to blow shit up. guess which has likely happened here. if life in raqqa wasn't shit enough already

'Sky's Sam Kiley, in northern Iraq, said the French airstrikes should not be seen as a "wanton act of revenge, but France saying we want to do all the strikes".

He said they were not carpet-bombing raids, but precision-guided operations that had been well planned in advance.'

Seems they were aimed at a recruitment centre and an arms depot. Sounds like they were already planned, probably brought forward though.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

ah ok that makes more sense

 

[.V.]

http://pjgoldsmith.com/2015/11/14/w...and-we-who-maintain-the-greyzone-are-winning/