Attacks in Paris + Belgium

[Luke_1884]

NATO wouldn't allow France to do an off the cuff attack, along with the other nations who are out there. These strikes would have been planned regardless and targets are taken extremely seriously. The amount of planned strikes that don't go ahead because the intel isn't 101% is alarming.

Having worked with the French AF before on similar ops they are very precise and arguably take more convincing than most nations to intervene, I don't think the weekends events would change their humane attitude either.

 

[Aber gas]

http://pjgoldsmith.com/2015/11/14/w...and-we-who-maintain-the-greyzone-are-winning/

Think you might have just smashed it there v.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

NATO wouldn't allow France to do an off the cuff attack, along with the other nations who are out there. These strikes would have been planned regardless and targets are taken extremely seriously. The amount of planned strikes that don't go ahead because the intel isn't 101% is alarming.

Having worked with the French AF before on similar ops they are very precise and arguably take more convincing than most nations to intervene, I don't think the weekends events would change their humane attitude either.

yeah i've been impressed with the intervention so far. i'm less sure when we're doing bombing runs deep in enemy territory, but the degree of precision inherent in the co-ordination between kurdish troops in the field and the coalition airforce is incredible

 

[.V.]

Think you might have just smashed it there v.

Thought it was an excellent article worth sharing as much as possible.

 

[Magic]

Crazy how different communities are. The equivalent threads on WACCOE are much more in favour of closing the borders with some outright racism. It's not the debate about maintaining security that bothers me, it's the lazy connection to the migrant crisis that does. And even that I don't have a problem with if it's reasoned.

And as morbid as it is, we can close the borders tomorrow and I'm fairly sure we'll see terror on the streets of Britain again.

As has been pointed out, loads of people on both sides saying "it's simple...". It really isn't.

 

[Gashead]

Aren't the only three who have been identified all French nationals? I don't understand why so much of the talk has surrounded borders/refugees when we don't know the backgrounds of the attackers.

It's quite likely some non-nationals are involved, but my point is this. The attack would have happened eventually, refugee crisis or no refugee crisis. The enemy is an ideology, that's what makes the response so difficult. Will the French bombing Syria work? Would closing borders work?

 

[Womble98]

Those who have been identified are French Nationals. I think a point which some are making, and which is really a valid point, is that those who are refugees may become French nationals and do the same as has been done by these nutters. Obviously most of them won't, but it only takes a few to do so. The Kourachi brothers who carried out the Charlie Hebdo attacks were sons of Algerian's who fled Algeria during its wars. It might be in the wider context illogical to ban all refugees on the basis that a few might commit these acts, but it is certainly possible to see where people are coming from.

Moreover, many of the Algerian immigrants to France live in virtual isolation in what are in truth ghettos, there isn't really another way to put it. The crime rates are also higher from those who have immigrated into France according to some reports-

A 2006 study found that the share of immigrants has a positive and significant impact on the crime rate, confirming that a larger share of immigrants is associated with a higher crime rate. [16]

Unfortunately this study appears to be in Japanese? http://park.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/yasto...park.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/yastodo/immigrants.pdf


Other studies have suggested that once the economic disparity is accounted for, the crime rates are pretty much the same, but unemployed migrants are more likely to resort to crime than those unemployed but who were born in that country.

Using French data, we find that the share of immigrants in the population has no significant impact on crime rates once immigrants' economic circumstances are controlled for, while finding that unemployed immigrants tend to commit more crimes than unemployed nonimmigrants.

The problem is, an immigrants economic circumstances are not accounted for, refugees are pretty much by nature quite economically bad off.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

thought i should remind everyone that thousands of europeans have left europe to fight for daesh. we could choose not to accept a single migrant or refugee ever again, and daesh could just stroll through airport security with their british or french passport

 

[Nath]

According to the RIBSS group the hospitals have signalled there's been no civilians casualties from the air strikes yet.

 

[Freakyteeth]

oh my god make it stop

https://twitter.com/kayburley/status/665807478060392448

 

[Womble98]

thought i should remind everyone that thousands of europeans have left europe to fight for daesh. we could choose not to accept a single migrant or refugee ever again, and daesh could just stroll through airport security with their british or french passport

We know most of those who have left. We knew that these people who committed these attacks had been to Syria.

 

[Aber gas]

Those who have been identified are French Nationals. I think a point which some are making, and which is really a valid point, is that those who are refugees may become French nationals and do the same as has been done by these nutters. Obviously most of them won't, but it only takes a few to do so. The Kourachi brothers who carried out the Charlie Hebdo attacks were sons of Algerian's who fled Algeria during its wars. It might be in the wider context illogical to ban all refugees on the basis that a few might commit these acts, but it is certainly possible to see where people are coming from.

Moreover, many of the Algerian immigrants to France live in virtual isolation in what are in truth ghettos, there isn't really another way to put it. The crime rates are also higher from those who have immigrated into France according to some reports-
Unfortunately this study appears to be in Japanese? http://park.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/yastodo/immigrants.pdf|title=http://park.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/yastodo/immigrants.pdf


Other studies have suggested that once the economic disparity is accounted for, the crime rates are pretty much the same, but unemployed migrants are more likely to resort to crime than those unemployed but who were born in that country.


The problem is, an immigrants economic circumstances are not accounted for, refugees are pretty much by nature quite economically bad off.

Ok den, so we start judging and condemning people in what they might do?
Fucking hell we can't pin terrorists attacks on the poorest so we start making assumptions on what might happen in the future. Good for you son

 

[Stagat]

Those who have been identified are French Nationals. I think a point which some are making, and which is really a valid point, is that those who are refugees may become French nationals and do the same as has been done by these nutters. Obviously most of them won't, but it only takes a few to do so.

Ok den, so we start judging and condemning people in what they might do?
Fucking hell we can't pin terrorists attacks on the poorest so we start making assumptions on what might happen in the future. Good for you son

It's almost like the goalposts are being moved to suit the narrative, Aber.

- These attacks must be connected to the migrants!

<Main suspect is French>

- But the migrants might become French later!

They've not even buried the dead yet from an attack that it doesn't appear any recent migrants were responsible for. Hypothesising about how they might be responsible for the next one because - well, I wouldn't like to say why, tbh - doesn't really seem like the right thing to be doing right now.

 

[Aber gas]

but, but but but .........

 

[Womble98]

Or its the case that you don't expose yourself to risks? We should help people in Turkey and in Lebanon and in Syria.

Unless you are going to make extensive and expensive efforts to fully fully integrate refugees, it is irresponsible to accept them. Look at the 7/7 bombers, and those who have carried out the French attacks. I bet that they will be "home-grown", second generation immigrants who feel so detached from society because it either wasn't able or willing to integrate them and allowed them to stay in their own shitty areas, with their own people, in shitty schools, with shitty job prospects.

 

[Womble98]

It is also worth pointing out though that IS are losing the war. They have lost huge amounts of territory in the past months, and are struggling.

 

[Freakyteeth]

Early morning GIGN raids across France.

I imagine they're moving in simultaneously on all the targets they've been tracking for however long, like the French Air Force strikes in Raqqa yesterday.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

That's a fucking great analogy, by the way.

It could not be more facile. If you have the ability to control the situation then you control it, you don't just let everyone inside flee and hope none of the terrorists escaped with them. You think when the authorities got onto the scene they just patched people up and let them go? Of course they didn't. Everyone trying to leave would have been checked thoroughly. The choice for Syrians (who are a minority of the "refugees") is not one between first world Europe and a fire-fight with ISIS. We have the resources to control borders and set up refugee centres inside Syria, so we should do. We should also go after the traffickers, which would help stop the drownings, which was the original issue, wasn't it? Everyone seems to have forgotten that now that Merkunt has flung the doors open...

I would suggest that most who remain in Syria - whatever flag hangs on a flagpost nearby - probably have neither the time nor the willpower to consider much about those who have left.

Scant evidence, but better than nothing.

 

[Alty]

Or its the case that you don't expose yourself to risks? We should help people in Turkey and in Lebanon and in Syria.

Unless you are going to make extensive and expensive efforts to fully fully integrate refugees, it is irresponsible to accept them. Look at the 7/7 bombers, and those who have carried out the French attacks. I bet that they will be "home-grown", second generation immigrants who feel so detached from society because it either wasn't able or willing to integrate them and allowed them to stay in their own shitty areas, with their own people, in shitty schools, with shitty job prospects.

Not that simple though, is it? Many of the Islamic terrorists who've been killed or caught were actually relatively well off, educated and (on the face of it) integrated. Wasn't the Glasgow bloke a doctor? And the London bomber a teacher? Those involved in 9/11 were university educated and seemed to be enjoying life in America.

I completely agree that it's important to allow people to integrate and to give them economic opportunities. But let's not kid ourselves - the problem here goes beyond that.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

thought i should remind everyone that thousands of europeans have left europe to fight for daesh. we could choose not to accept a single migrant or refugee ever again, and daesh could just stroll through airport security with their british or french passport

Those who can be identified as having left for IS have their passports blacklisted and would be picked up at a European airport.

Obviously it must be tricky to identify all, and even for those who are boarder checks arent fullproof. Some will surely slip through you'd imagine. But thousands strolling back through? No chance.

Although does that make an argument for tougher boarder control?..

 

[Aber gas]

Or its the case that you don't expose yourself to risks? We should help people in Turkey and in Lebanon and in Syria.

Unless you are going to make extensive and expensive efforts to fully fully integrate refugees, it is irresponsible to accept them. Look at the 7/7 bombers, and those who have carried out the French attacks. I bet that they will be "home-grown", second generation immigrants who feel so detached from society because it either wasn't able or willing to integrate them and allowed them to stay in their own shitty areas, with their own people, in shitty schools, with shitty job prospects.

You're moving goal posts again. You are connecting asylum with second generation immigrants for some reason. Most of the refugees will go home when it is safe to do so, Bosnians did after the Balkan conflicts.
I happen to think that most immigrants integrate in Britain and our society is richer for it so I don't really understand your point about immigrants being stuck in shitty areas but perhaps your experiences are different. I'm a third generation immigrant.

 

[Christian Slater]

"Irresponsible to accept refugees" has to be one of the most backwards statements I've seen on this issue yet.

 

[mowgli]

I'm not going to slaughter you mowgli. I know you're a good guy and far from a right wing nutjob but I can't agree with you on this issue. I think it's wrong to deny people in need on the basis of there perhaps being terrorists amongst their number. If we sacrifice our humanity, empathy and tolerance in the name of dubious "security" then the terrorists have won.
What I find ugly about this debate isn't the genuine fears and concerns of people( although I disagree ) but the hijacking of a terrible event to promote prejudiced, ignorant and yeah racist views. Again I'm not including you here.
Hope you are well and my post has come across as intended.

No problem with your post mate i understand where you're coming from but we'll obviously never agree but i respect your opinion on such an emotive subject.
I'm well mate thanks for asking,how are you doing? Hope your wife's recovery is going as well as was expected.

 

[HertsWolf]

That's a fucking great analogy, by the way.

It could not be more facile. If you have the ability to control the situation then you control it, you don't just let everyone inside flee and hope none of the terrorists escaped with them. You think when the authorities got onto the scene they just patched people up and let them go? Of course they didn't. Everyone trying to leave would have been checked thoroughly. The choice for Syrians (who are a minority of the "refugees") is not one between first world Europe and a fire-fight with ISIS. We have the resources to control borders and set up refugee centres inside Syria, so we should do. We should also go after the traffickers, which would help stop the drownings, which was the original issue, wasn't it? Everyone seems to have forgotten that now that Merkunt has flung the doors open...

The analogy was superb. It was superb because it was simple, ingenious and apt: when people are fleeing a terrorist situation, you get people clear then worry about the consequences later. Most people would rather a terrorist escape than more innocents suffer. Locking the innocent in (or out) while you set up a stall to check (possibly fake ID) verges on the inhumane.

Good for Angela Merkel. No-one believed that the compassionate solution would be free of problems, apart from those who carp and whine from the comfort of suburbia. Merkel and the many others recognise that opening the borders is far from ideal and will cause no end of future problems, but it's a crisis and the generally positive reaction in Europe is a prime reason why "we" will win and IS will never win.

 

[Womble98]

"Irresponsible to accept refugees" has to be one of the most backwards statements I've seen on this issue yet.

Unless we can properly look after them and integrate them into society, we shouldn't accept them.

The idea that they are going to willingly go back to Syria which lies in ruin once the war is over is truly laughable, why the fuck would they? Would you?

 

[M Dogg]

I think anyone can see that the way the European nations have dealt with the migrant crisis, particularly during August/Sept when it really kicked off, was a shambles. Admittedly there were thousands of people in need of food, water and shelter on our doorstep and no concensus was reached by anyone quickly, leading to the mess. I really think that if only one terrorist has slipped through the net then the powers that be have failed in their responsibility to their people.

HOWEVER - To blame the refugees for this is absolute folly. A refugee is exactly what is says on tin. You cannot ignore them because of a perceived threat. They needed to have been dealt with in a slightly more organised and controlled manner, but in reality what could have been done short of calling in an army and forcing them back. They need help and we owed them that, as humans.

The fact is your as likely to blown up by a refugee as you are by your next door neighbour who's been brainwashed online. The root cause needs solving and that is the shit we have created for ourselves in the middle east. I don't know what the answer is, but ''closing our borders'' won't make a difference. People using these attacks to support their own bigoted agenda want their heads wobbling.

 

[TomPNE94]

I think anyone can see that the way the European nations have dealt with the migrant crisis, particularly during August/Sept when it really kicked off, was a shambles. Admittedly there were thousands of people in need of food, water and shelter on our doorstep and no concensus was reached by anyone quickly, leading to the mess. I really think that if only one terrorist has slipped through the net then the powers that be have failed in their responsibility to their people.

HOWEVER - To blame the refugees for this is absolute folly. A refugee is exactly what is says on tin. You cannot ignore them because of a perceived threat. They needed to have been dealt with in a slightly more organised and controlled manner, but in reality what could have been done short of calling in an army and forcing them back. They need help and we owed them that, as humans.

The fact is your as likely to blown up by a refugee as you are by your next door neighbour who's been brainwashed online. The root cause needs solving and that is the shit we have created for ourselves in the middle east. I don't know what the answer is, but ''closing our borders'' won't make a difference. People using these attacks to support their own bigoted agenda want their heads wobbling.

The 2nd bolded statement proves the 1st to be wrong. You have pointed out exactly why the "powers that be" did what they did and there was no other alternative.

 

[Womble98]

Well our borders are closed to the refugees anyway. We should be helping people in Syria, in Turkey, in Lebanon, and in Jordan. That way, when the war is over they can actually return to their countries. We should not be encouraging people to risk their lives travelling across the sea and trekking through Europe, especially since winter is now coming.

 

[M Dogg]

The 2nd bolded statement proves the 1st to be wrong. You have pointed out exactly why the "powers that be" did what they did and there was no other alternative.

Slightly contradictory agreed. But ultimately their responsibility to us has failed, regardless of the reasons. Slightly harsh and not exactly critical to the point I'm making mind.

 

[blade1889]

*commenting to follow thread*