European Union Referendum

[.V.]

As far as I'm aware the Sunday Mail have been in remain for some time.

 

[SUTSS]

The Mail aren't backing remain. The Mail on Sunday are. They have different editors.

Much like The Times backing remain and the Sunday Times backing leave.

 

[Alty]

The Mail aren't backing remain. The Mail on Sunday are. They have different editors.

Much like The Times backing remain and the Sunday Times backing leave.

Presumably The Mail on Sunday focuses more on property values and the TV guide for the week ahead, hence supporting the status quo.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

I'm not overly surprised by either of those. The Times and the Sunday Times have taken up different positions before (the latter has long seemed a more right-wing title that he former). The MoS is a bit more surprising but perhaps owes much to a bitter power struggle taking place at Mail HQ - Dacre (the DM editor) and Greig (MoS) are said to absolutely loathe one another, and the latter has been trying to drag his paper in a different direction for a while now.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Why put a pic of Churchill up?

Churchill did say: "A nation that forgets its past has no future."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/07/brexit-or-bremain-readers-eu-referendum
I'm trying to understand the one argument supporting either side.
Bremain is basically: "The EU was set up as an antidote to the extreme nationalism that devastated the continent for decades. That’s worth protecting."
Brexit comes off more like an old Monty Python sketch: "I don't like darkies!"

 

[redjed]

I can see the SUN's headline , cartoon on Thursday, a picture of a common man slamming the door on the EU, the paper is sure to print some sort of comment along the lines of its great headline of the 90's......Will the last person out of britain turn of the lights.......that headline alone destroyed Labours bid to win the election when they were miles ahead in the polls.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Because the European Commission is the only branch that has the right to initiate legislation, but none of the 28 people who make up the Commission are elected.

Would you want to vote for your commissioner?

 

[Alty]

Would you want to vote for your commissioner?

I don't want a Commissioner.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

I don't want a Commissioner.

What would you want, then? Two elected chambers in Brussels? Direct EU presidential elections? See, this is the stuff, that's not being implemented, because the population of the EU members generally doesn't want some "United States of Europe." (It doesn't have to be an all-American solution, right now we can see their presidential election being one big ass circus.) We all know that the vast majority of the European politicians are ready to go all in, but they actually hold back, because you, their citizens, ain't ready for it. I see them recognize, that you're terrified of their potential corruption in some pan-continental solution, and they ain't getting the credit for it.

 

[blade1889]

Why do we have to have two chambers? Not sure I've ever really understood the point in the second one. Even less so with Europe where there isn't ever going to be one party with a majority who can make whatever laws they want without others being able to influence them.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Polls today showing some slight movement back to Remain. Looking like a very similar polling pattern to the Indy Ref. Still looks to be really tight though.

The bookmakers have done a fairly big U-turn with Remain moving from 2/3 to 1/3.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Why do we have to have two chambers? Not sure I've ever really understood the point in the second one. Even less so with Europe where there isn't ever going to be one party with a majority who can make whatever laws they want without others being able to influence them.

I've actually been wondering about that, too. I'm in a country with only one house (Riksdagen in Sweden) and grew up in one with only one (Folketinget in Denmark, both countries historically had two into the 20th), so I'm a little puzzled about the UK's elected House of Commons and the unelected House of Lords (which I think is what they copied in the young US of A, they just made both popular elected). Is it just the last remnant of feudalism, where the nobility don't want to shed their last privilege? (I can get that, we have nobility in Scandinavia, too.) Don't get me wrong, it seems to be working. Maybe it's a benefit to have everything go through two floors, so nothing is decided in fits of national hysteria (like a jewellery law, or something...).

 

[blade1889]

I've actually been wondering about that, too. I'm in a country with only one house (Riksdagen in Sweden) and grew up in one with only one (Folketinget in Denmark, both countries historically had two into the 20th), so I'm a little puzzled about the UK's elected House of Commons and the unelected House of Lords (which I think is what they copied in the young US of A, they just made both popular elected). Is it just the last remnant of feudalism, where the nobility don't want to shed their last privilege? (I can get that, we have nobility in Scandinavia, too.) Don't get me wrong, it seems to be working. Maybe it's a benefit to have everything go through two floors, so nothing is decided in fits of national hysteria (like a jewellery law, or something...).

That's why I have a vague understanding that it could be useful to have a second house when a party has a majority, a good way to keep them in check and not doing something disastrous and random. But that's not applicable to something like the EU where no party can ever have a majority.

FWIW I think membership to our house of lords needs a drastic overhaul but that's been done to death.

 

[Habbinalan]

For any in doubt about the racist intent of this poster, note the editting out of the prominent white face front right.

 

[Alty]

What would you want, then? Two elected chambers in Brussels? Direct EU presidential elections? See, this is the stuff, that's not being implemented, because the population of the EU members generally doesn't want some "United States of Europe." (It doesn't have to be an all-American solution, right now we can see their presidential election being one big ass circus.) We all know that the vast majority of the European politicians are ready to go all in, but they actually hold back, because you, their citizens, ain't ready for it. I see them recognize, that you're terrified of their potential corruption in some pan-continental solution, and they ain't getting the credit for it.

Democratic nations states that cooperate inter-governmentally without the need for a pan-European bureaucracy.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Democratic nations states that cooperate inter-governmentally without the need for a pan-European bureaucracy.

We're moving into a world, where I don't think that'd be enough anymore. We're already in a second cold war, because Stalin's old war loot Eastern Europe'd rather be European than Russian, and now Kremlin is doing the wounded bear.

That's my perspective on this. Stand fast, lads, I beg you. The storm has far from peaked yet, and I don't see that we can weather it standing alone.

It's not exactly like the EU is rigid. They have already compromised on the principle of freedom of movement, the borders having closed down from Greece to Sweden in response to the migrant crisis. Again, you need to understand that: Brussels has compromised on the principle of freedom of movement, because it was being abused by the enemies of the EU project.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

 

[CEngelbrecht]

If even bloody Jeremy is a Bremain...
Jeremy Clarkson announces he wants Britain to stay in the EU to create a 'United States of Europe' | People | News | The Independent

 

[mowgli]

If even bloody Jeremy is a Bremain...
Jeremy Clarkson announces he wants Britain to stay in the EU to create a 'United States of Europe' | People | News | The Independent

He declared that 2 months ago so please keep up otherwise you're likely to look a fool

 

[CEngelbrecht]

He declared that 2 months ago so please keep up otherwise you're likely to look a fool

It's news to me. And Clarkson's a frothing royalist, I know that much.
And better to look like a fool and be the wise man, than to appear wise, but be the fool, wouldn't you say?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

For any in doubt about the racist intent of this poster, note the editting out of the prominent white face front right.

He's in both images to be fair, the banner just cover most of his head.

 

[mowgli]

He's in both images to be fair, the banner just cover most of his head.

Don't let the truth get in the way of Remain propaganda.

 

[Habbinalan]

He's in both images to be fair, the banner just cover most of his head.

I think that was the point.

 

[Habbinalan]

I make no judgement on any member's views or motivations on this topic. However, I do find too many UKIP activists (in the E of E) to be blatantly racist to not pass comment when Farage crossses the line again. The images on the left are from an actual Nazi propaganda film from the 1930s. Chilling.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

I make no judgement on any member's views or motivations on this topic. However, I do find too many UKIP activists (in the E of E) to be blatantly racist to not pass comment when Farage crossses the line again. The images on the left are from an actual Nazi propaganda film from the 1930s. Chilling.

Yuck. To reiterate:

"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
- Winston Churchill, 1946

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I think that was the point.

Bit silly to accuse someone of racism based on that then.

[...] Chilling.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

"A nation that forgets its past has no future."
- Winston bloody Churchill

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Yes well done. I haven't forgotten about the genocide the Nazis committed, nor the one Churchill had a hand in also.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Yes well done. I haven't forgotten what the genocide the Nazis committed, nor the one Churchill had a hand in also.

Are you thinking about India, or something?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

India, yes.