European Union Referendum

[CEngelbrecht]

India, yes.

So now the Bulldog is irrelevant? Not when you wish to celebrate your just triumphs in WWII, but when you don't want him to be right about a collective Europe free of future civil wars?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

So now the Bulldog is irrelevant?

So now remembering history is irrelevant? You can't support attacks on Farage & co with tenuous comparisons to a genocidal regime and then try to use the words of someone who was actually a part of one to make your argument.

Not when you wish to celebrate your just triumphs in WWII, but when you don't want him to be right about a collective Europe free of future civil wars?

Churchill is celebrated as a great war leader, not a political philosopher, though even if he were he never wanted what you're claiming he did in any case.

“We are bound to further every honest and practical step to which the nations of Europe may make to reduce barriers which divide them and to nourish their common interests and their common welfare.
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“We rejoice at every diminution of the internal tariffs and the martial armaments of Europe. We see nothing but good and hope in a richer, freer, more contented European commonality.
​

“But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.”​

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Churchill is celebrated as a great war leader, not a political philosopher, though even if he were he never wanted what you're claiming he did in any case.

“We are bound to further every honest and practical step to which the nations of Europe may make to reduce barriers which divide them and to nourish their common interests and their common welfare.

“We rejoice at every diminution of the internal tariffs and the martial armaments of Europe. We see nothing but good and hope in a richer, freer, more contented European commonality.

“But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.”​

I'm not sure if you're not supporting my view here. I don't see any difference from the quotes above and what EU is right now and would still be after a possible Bremain. What exactly is it you think the EU is at the moment?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

How you can read that last paragraph and believe he would have supported Britain's current relationship with the European Union I have no idea. His views should be irrelevant either way, but to claim that he'd support the Remain camp is to get creative with the truth to put it kindly.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

How you can read that last paragraph and believe he would have supported Britain's current relationship with the European Union I have no idea. His views should be irrelevant either way, but to claim that he'd support the Remain camp is to get creative with the truth to put it kindly.

What exactly is it you think the EU is, right here, right now?

 

[CEngelbrecht]

It is so dreadful to see so many be the willing pawns of a demagogue like Vladimir Putin. How can one have any hope left for humanity, when Machiavelli is proven right again and again?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

What exactly is it you think the EU is, right here, right now?

A political union that shifts democratic power and national sovereignty away from the people and centralises it amongst lawmakers that no one voted for. It's not an association of states it's an amalgamation. It's on precisely the wrong side of the distinction that Churchill was trying to draw.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

A political union that shifts democratic power and national sovereignty away from the people and centralises it amongst a group of people that no one voted for. It's not an association of states it's an amalgamation. It's on precisely the wrong side of the distinction that Churchill was trying to draw.

Don't you guys vote for the EU parliament too? They're the ones electing one official from each of the member countries for the 28 people in the EU commission. How is this democratically different from the forming of national governments?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I edited that out of the post ten minutes before you responded.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Oh, this is bullshit. Look, we can talk about reform of the EU insititutions on so many levels, about more direct voting and transparency and accountability. But it's utter cack to paint the whole setup as some fascist regime. Yes, sometimes game theory can be a bitch, a good compromise satisfies nobody. You think you guys in some magical fashion wouldn't have been hit by the global financial crisis, if you hadn't been in the EU? Do you have any idea how much you have been spared of, compared to Spain, or Italy, or Greece, or even Ireland, and how much of that you have this evil, evil Brussels to thank for? How many of them damn immigrants nobody wants do you think you would have gotten into the country by now, if the French police wasn't constantly keeping them from trying to reach Britain via the tunnel, because that's the EU directive? Why would China keep trading with the UK as much as they have, if she leaves the EU? The EU is where the money is, and we can't make due without that damn trade from the Chinese work horse.
Look at this map again. Don't you see, that you guys get off easy, and that it's thanks to the bloody EU! How about a little credit where credit is due??? Don't you dare fucking whine about too many immigrants!!!

 

[JaseTheVillain]

Must point out that a large reason we weren't as badly affected by the global financial crisis as the other countries you mentioned is because we didn't join the Euro. Something which the same 'financial experts' that are predicting us to go to shit should we leave the EU predicted would land us in a bad way.

 

[Aber gas]

Oh, this is bullshit. Look, we can talk about reform of the EU insititutions on so many levels, about more direct voting and transparency and accountability. But it's utter cack to paint the whole setup as some fascist regime. Yes, sometimes game theory can be a bitch, a good compromise satisfies nobody. You think you guys in some magical fashion wouldn't have been hit by the global financial crisis, if you hadn't been in the EU? Do you have any idea how much you have been spared of, compared to Spain, or Italy, or Greece, or even Ireland, and how much of that you have this evil, evil Brussels to thank for? How many of them damn immigrants nobody wants do you think you would have gotten into the country by now, if the French police wasn't constantly keeping them from trying to reach Britain via the tunnel, because that's the EU directive? Why would China keep trading with the UK as much as they have, if she leaves the EU? The EU is where the money is, and we can't make due without that damn trade from the Chinese work horse.
Look at this map again. Don't you see, that you guys get off easy, and that it's thanks to the bloody EU! How about a little credit where credit is due??? Don't you dare fucking whine about too many immigrants!!!

We're not all whining about immigrants fwiw. I quite like them. Fuck da EU THO

 

[JaseTheVillain]

Also that. ^

 

[Mustard]

We're not all whining about immigrants fwiw. I quite like them. Fuck da EU THO

You live in Wales? Why fuck the EU? Wales, as a poorer region, is one of the biggest beneficiaries of the EU, and won't receive anything like the support it does now from a UK government post Brexit. This will only be exacerbated when Scotland leaves post Brexit, leading to a Tory monopoly on UK governance for years.

 

[Aber gas]

You live in Wales? Why fuck the EU? Wales, as a poorer region, is one of the biggest beneficiaries of the EU, and won't receive anything like the support it does now from a UK government post Brexit. This will only be exacerbated when Scotland leaves post Brexit, leading to a Tory monopoly on UK governance for years.

Not sure any of that will happen. Are you absolutely certain that Scotland will leave post Brexit? Why would funding for Wales be cut necessarily? And why would anyone assume we'd have a Tory government further down the line?

My post was a deliberately flippant response in reaction to some fairly ridiculous arguements. But take it as you like.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Oh, this is bullshit. Look, we can talk about reform of the EU insititutions on so many levels, about more direct voting and transparency and accountability. But it's utter cack to paint the whole setup as some fascist regime.

I agree. Fortunately no one has done.

Yes, sometimes game theory can be a bitch, a good compromise satisfies nobody. You think you guys in some magical fashion wouldn't have been hit by the global financial crisis, if you hadn't been in the EU? Do you have any idea how much you have been spared of, compared to Spain, or Italy, or Greece, or even Ireland, and how much of that you have this evil, evil Brussels to thank for?

Please enlighten me. But before you do, you are aware that the European free trade area(s) recovered worse than pretty much any place of comparable size in the world, right? Even today Europe is the only continent on Earth that doesn't experience any growth of note.

How many of them damn immigrants nobody wants do you think you would have gotten into the country by now, if the French police wasn't constantly keeping them from trying to reach Britain via the tunnel, because that's the EU directive? Why would China keep trading with the UK as much as they have, if she leaves the EU? The EU is where the money is, and we can't make due without that damn trade from the Chinese work horse.
Look at this map again. Don't you see, that you guys get off easy, and that it's thanks to the bloody EU! How about a little credit where credit is due??? Don't you dare fucking whine about too many immigrants!!!

I'm sorry but I think you're confused about the EU immigration debate in the UK. When we say "immigrants", that's not some sort of euphemism for brown people or refugees. We're talking predominantly about white Europeans from places like Poland or Romania.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Not sure any of that will happen. Are you absolutely certain that Scotland will leave post Brexit? Why would funding for Wales be cut necessarily? And why would anyone assume we'd have a Tory government further down the line?

My post was a deliberately flippant response in reaction to some fairly ridiculous arguements. But take it as you like.

It's very unlikely that Scotland would leave post-Brexit it my view. The SNP have already leaked that they're not even planning for it, and when polling shows that a majority of Scots wouldn't even support staging another referendum, let alone voting to leave, you can see why.

 

[Aber gas]

It's very unlikely that Scotland would leave post-Brexit it my view. The SNP have already leaked that they're not even planning for it, and when polling shows that a majority of Scots wouldn't even support staging another referendum, let alone voting to leave, you can see why.

Who knows what the Scots may do eventually. But I agree, there isn't the political will for independence in the short term whichever way the referendum goes. Bizarre argument.

 

[Mustard]

Not sure any of that will happen. Are you absolutely certain that Scotland will leave post Brexit? Why would funding for Wales be cut necessarily? And why would anyone assume we'd have a Tory government further down the line?

My post was a deliberately flippant response in reaction to some fairly ridiculous arguements. But take it as you like.

Of course I don't know for sure, but I think there is a likelihood it will happen in the future seeing as Scotland will be voting to remain. Perhaps not straight away since current polls suggest they would still vote 'no' to secession in a second referendum, but since one of the main arguments to staying in the union last time was so as to not jeopardise their EU status, I can see it happening at some point. Maybe not for a decade, or two decades, whatever. When it happens, it will be bad for regions that the Conservatives typically don't favour. I wanted the Scots to stay in the union in their last referendum, but really wouldn't blame them for demanding a second referendum if we leave the EU. Right to self determination and all that...

I've lived in Wales for the past 5 years and most Welsh I know are staunchly in for remain so your stance is different from my experience with others (these are young people too so not too representative of all of Wales). Wales has a net benefit from from the EU economically, especially as many regions (i.e. the valleys) qualify as being suitably poor to receive extra funding for development (for regions of the EU that have a wealth <75% the EU average). I just can't see Wales getting this level of focused development from a UK government, firstly because our economy will be weaker (and therefore there will be less money in the pot to spend on this development), secondly because a Tory government will not prioritise Wales over other regions, and thirdly thanks to the Barnett formula which dictates how money is spent across the union.

On the first point, most experts blah blah blah think the economy will be weaker. Pretty self explanatory and I won't go into it. If Scotland secedes the union, that will be a large number of (traditionally) Labour supporters leaving the UK leaving us with the Tories to do as they wish for the significant future. Of course that is based on ifs, but even a non-Tory government won't be able to match the funding Wales gets currently, and that links to the third point, the Barnett formula. The Barnett formula dictates the level of public spending per head in each state across the union. Currently Wales doesn't do as well per head as Scotland or NI, but slightly better than England as you might expect. However in terms of EU funding Wales does disproportionately well from the EU compared to the other states in the union. It is therefore safe to assume that, if the UK 'saved money' on UK membership (ignoring for a second the wider economic impact), this money would be reinvested into each state either using the Barnett formula or a similar mechanism that is not as favourable to Wales (why would they?). Wales has a great deal from EU funding as it is, and has the most to lose by leaving the EU.

EDIT: Just to add, the scenarios in this paper (http://www.walespublicservices2025.org.uk/files/2016/05/Brexit-WPS-2025-Final.pdf) give an idea of the possible implications of Brexit for public spending in Wales. Indicative only, of course.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

I love everything British. Please don't do this to me.

 

[Alty]

Of course I don't know for sure, but I think there is a likelihood it will happen in the future seeing as Scotland will be voting to remain. Perhaps not straight away since current polls suggest they would still vote 'no' to secession in a second referendum, but since one of the main arguments to staying in the union last time was so as to not jeopardise their EU status, I can see it happening at some point. Maybe not for a decade, or two decades, whatever. When it happens, it will be bad for regions that the Conservatives typically don't favour. I wanted the Scots to stay in the union in their last referendum, but really wouldn't blame them for demanding a second referendum if we leave the EU. Right to self determination and all that...

I've lived in Wales for the past 5 years and most Welsh I know are staunchly in for remain so your stance is different from my experience with others (these are young people too so not too representative of all of Wales). Wales has a net benefit from from the EU economically, especially as many regions (i.e. the valleys) qualify as being suitably poor to receive extra funding for development (for regions of the EU that have a wealth <75% the EU average). I just can't see Wales getting this level of focused development from a UK government, firstly because our economy will be weaker (and therefore there will be less money in the pot to spend on this development), secondly because a Tory government will not prioritise Wales over other regions, and thirdly thanks to the Barnett formula which dictates how money is spent across the union.

On the first point, most experts blah blah blah think the economy will be weaker. Pretty self explanatory and I won't go into it. If Scotland secedes the union, that will be a large number of (traditionally) Labour supporters leaving the UK leaving us with the Tories to do as they wish for the significant future. Of course that is based on ifs, but even a non-Tory government won't be able to match the funding Wales gets currently, and that links to the third point, the Barnett formula. The Barnett formula dictates the level of public spending per head in each state across the union. Currently Wales doesn't do as well per head as Scotland or NI, but slightly better than England as you might expect. However in terms of EU funding Wales does disproportionately well from the EU compared to the other states in the union. It is therefore safe to assume that, if the UK 'saved money' on UK membership (ignoring for a second the wider economic impact), this money would be reinvested into each state either using the Barnett formula or a similar mechanism that is not as favourable to Wales (why would they?). Wales has a great deal from EU funding as it is, and has the most to lose by leaving the EU.

EDIT: Just to add, the scenarios in this paper (http://www.walespublicservices2025.org.uk/files/2016/05/Brexit-WPS-2025-Final.pdf) give an idea of the possible implications of Brexit for public spending in Wales. Indicative only, of course.

Pretty sure areas like Newcastle, Liverpool and Wales that previously did well out of development fund money can forget about raking it in in future. We've already had 10 former communist countries join and there are more relatively poor countries about to join too.

 

[Habbinalan]

I love everything British. Please don't do this to me.

Most of the British don't "love everything British" and we tend to be suspicious, if not downright contemptuous, of those who say they do.

Even allowing a bit of leeway for you distorted perceptions of the country and people you love, you have probably now joined their ranks.

Churchill has widespread respect for being the right person at the right time in the war but it is no coincidence that the man who set the troops on striking miners and had a very old school view of empire, class and Britain's place in the world was voted out when the troops returned. I don't set store by much that he spouted.

 

[Alty]

Don't buy the Scot Nat independence argument at all, by the way. It was billed by the SNP themselves as once in a generation; an EU referendum was known to be a distinct possibility in 2014 when the vote happened; it's up to Westminster to grant a referendum which there would be no obligation to do; and there's no appetite for independence in Scotland now oil is obviously not going to sustain the country.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Most of the British don't "love everything British" and we tend to be suspicious, if not downright contemptuous, of those who say they do.

What language are we communicating in, lad? Sixty years ago with the Coal and Steel Union, the European project formed on the Lingua Franca. Today, all of Europe is Anglophone, even the proud French have accepted that. Britain is Europe.

 

[silkyman]

Finally saw the Leave 'NHS' advert last night.

What utter bollocks. We must be safer outside of the EU, because those nasty euroforrins are really fucking clumsy. I can't think of any other reason why 3.6% of the population is apparently making up two thirds of the people in A&E.

And it still screams that utter lie about £350m, too.

Meanwhile, on Twitter, I saw someone genuinely arguing for an out vote, because you can't but bananas in pounds anymore. The metric system. Really.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

A Brexit would be your biggest mistake for generations to come. Your children and their children will look at you and ask, "Why?"

Brexit would make Britain the world’s most hated nation | the Guardian

"It could well turn into the worst example in history of cutting off your nose to spite your face."

 

[CEngelbrecht]

"Britons never shall be slaves." I've watched the Last Night of the Proms every year on Danish or Swedish tele since I was a child. Now all I can see is that all the Brexit folk are willing slaves to one of the most evil men on the planet.

 

[Mustard]

Pretty sure areas like Newcastle, Liverpool and Wales that previously did well out of development fund money can forget about raking it in in future. We've already had 10 former communist countries join and there are more relatively poor countries about to join too.

Wales has qualified for this funding for 3 seven year periods in a row. This is despite the likes of Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia all joining in that time. But the Welsh GDP per capita in the poorest regions is growing slower than the average EU GDP, even when these newly added countries are taken into account to drop the average down (and these were some fairly populous countries). The whole point of the funding is to ensure the GDP is not below the 75% threshold after the 7 year period, and yet Wales has struggled for 21 years to catch up. Even if Wales did catch up, they would qualify for the transition level of funding (i.e. for regions between 75-90% average GDP per capita) which is a damn sight more than they would get from a UK government. The next countries are unlikely to join before the next round of funding and even when they do join, the likes of Serbia, Montenegro, Albania and Macedonia have a combined population around 1/3 of Poland's population, and so won't dramatically bring the average GDP per capita down. Plus in the mean time they are receiving billions of developmental funding to boost their economies prior to accession. The only serious threat I can see is Turkey, as although their economy is stronger than many of Europe's poorest countries, they have a large rural population, but clearly Turkey is some way off qualifying for the EU. For the foreseeable future Wales will always be treading that line between lesser developed region funding, and transition region funding.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Come on, you can keep hating on the EU all you want after a Bremain, while reaping most of the benefits. Just like now.