European Union Referendum

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I'm disappointed at so many people celebrating a false dawn.

There will be a lot of disappointed outers in the not too distant future. They've been lied to a lot.

Oh well, I just hope the country rallies to make the best of this. We could be better off because of it, I doubt it though. In fighting and bickering will do nothing to help.

 

[Craig]

When they turned to right, you have a choice in life and they are clearly choosing populist, right-wing politics. City life is the only future, they are going to be left behind with our without the EU, I used to think we should try and help these people but now I have no time for them, they've betrayed us and they can reap the whirlwind.

Corbyn should leave immediately, he has been utterly pathetic in this.

You're obviously quite proud that your cosmopolitan city voted remain. As much as I am disappointed my inbred backwater voted leave. However, I feel the need to point out that Liverpool had more leave supporters than lots of these little insignificant provincial no markers did, and ultimately it was the overall vote that triumphed. I was one of over 38k in my local authority to vote remain, but I'm careful not to tar all my neighbours who out-voted us in a truly democratic poll with the same bigoted brush you're waving about here. Maybe your city isn't the benchmark of forward thinking after all?

I'm disappointed that we've voted out, but some of the reactions from some folk who voted remain are hilarious. As disappointing as the vote was I'm quite happy we live in a country where we are allowed to vote on these decisions. The majority wanted out, those of us who wanted in need to stop crying about and move forward and make the best of what we believe is going to be a bad situation.

 

[Abertawe]

You guys want this to fail evidently.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I don't have much at the moment, TBH. Some of you (most, I imagine) are relatively new to this subject, but for me it's been a political obsession for about 15 years. I never thought we'd get a referendum. Once we got it, I never thought we'd win. I've been awake for 50+ hours and my head is mince. The overwhelming feeling right now is probably best summed up as one of bemused exhaustion.

And, yes, there are mixed feelings. As a EU-sceptic, I'm delighted. As a British Unionist, I'm full of foreboding. I knew the vote might have that effect. I knew the likely implications. The irony that I may have precipitated a second Scottish referendum (a mere few years after making myself ill fighting the first) is not lost on me. Perhaps there is something in that old Wilde quote about there being two tragedies in life…

I don't regret voting for Leave. I'd do so again with the benefit of hindsight. But there's no simple-minded triumphalism here. No wish to be Gloaty McGloaty-Gloat. It hurts to read posts like Saltire's because I love Scotland with an intensity that defies literal expression. It hurts to read posts like Phil's because I too know the pressures and stresses of (impending) fatherhood, and because I accept unequivocally that it's rational to worry about economic stability. To me it's a transient concern and certain things matter significantly more, but I've tried throughout this thread (with varying degrees of success, I fear) to be respectful of the fact that many don't share my political/philosophy priorities.

I think regulars here know I don't like Boris, but for me this was never about which individuals might temporarily run the country in the near or immediate future. Again, this has always seemed to me a legitimate but essentially transient concern, and I can honestly say I would have voted Leave even if the most likely outcome had been Jeremy Corbyn (or, worse, Blairite Labour) running the country for the next 20 years. For me this has always been about challenging various pre-suppositions about how we should be governed, about the power relationship the citizenry enjoys with those who govern on its behalf. It wasn't about quick solutions or panaceas. It was about choosing government by democratic consent (with all its maddening imperfections) over government by aloof technocracy.

I could expand on this for those who are interested, but not now. It's time for bed.

 

[Christian Slater]

You guys want this to fail evidently.

Not want but think. The problem is this political dichotomy which is akin to a football game, it's not supposed to be about which side won bragging rights, the good of the country is at stake.

 

[Krazy8]

Tell me how. We've effectively turned our country over to people like yourself, people who wanted this and voted for it.

So tell me how the UK moves forward. What do you see happening in the short and long term? What sort of position will we be in 5 years down the line? 10 years? I ask because nobody on the Leave side has hold me anything of value. They've shaken their fists and thrown out the soundbites, but now is the crucial bit. Now is moving forward and actually making this a viable plan. Who do you want to see take over the Conservatives, which party do do you see taking over should there be an election in the next 6-12 months?

How do you see this working for the country in the short and long term?

I think there have been a lot of comments from leavers about how they see the country moving forward, be it on trade, investment or immigration etc. Problem is that it's the complete opposite to what the remainers want to hear, so straight away it gets ridiculed or dismissed out of hand.

 

[Max]

Gideon as PM would be even worse than Boris.

He is politically tied to Cameron like Brown was to Blair. He has 0% credibility among the Parliamentary Conservative Party, and will not remain as Chancellor. Unknown backbenchers have a better chance at being PM than he does, now.

 

[Max]

You guys want this to fail evidently.

Not at all, from my point of view. But I AM being asked to celebrate by Nigel Farage (who I think is a political obsessive and a race-baiter), Boris Johnson (who decided this was a great idea based on careerism) and Michael Gove (who I actually don't mind). I'm being told to hope it will be fine, when there could be massive ramifications.

 

[Abertawe]

Not want but think. The problem is this political dichotomy which is akin to a football game, it's not supposed to be about which side won bragging rights, the good of the country is at stake.

Try telling that to the majority on here. Honestly it's as though their sister has married their most hated rival from school. It's time to step up, one of the biggest benefits from this is that the government are now properly accountable. No more disguising difficult issues under the cloak of eu bureaucracy,.

 

[Christian Slater]

Try telling that to the majority on here. Honestly it's as though their sister has married their most hated rival from school. It's time to step up, one of the biggest benefits from this is that the government are now properly accountable. No more disguising difficult issues under the cloak of eu bureaucracy,.

I think it's fair that people are concerned about the future of their jobs and financial security.

 

[SUTSS]

I don't have much at the moment, TBH. Some of you (most, I imagine) are relatively new to this subject, but for me it's been a political obsession for about 15 years. I never thought we'd get a referendum. Once we got it, I never thought we'd win. I've been awake for 50+ hours and my head is mince. The overwhelming feeling right now is probably best summed up as one of bemused exhaustion.

And, yes, there are mixed feelings. As a EU-sceptic, I'm delighted. As a British Unionist, I'm full of foreboding. I knew the vote might have that effect. I knew the likely implications. The irony that I may have precipitated a second Scottish referendum (a mere few years after making myself ill fighting the first) is not lost on me. Perhaps there is something in that old Wilde quote about there being two tragedies in life…

I don't regret voting for Leave. I'd do so again with the benefit of hindsight. But there's no simple-minded triumphalism here. No wish to be Gloaty McGloaty-Gloat. It hurts to read posts like Saltire's because I love Scotland with an intensity that defies literal expression. It hurts to read posts like Phil's because I too know the pressures and stresses of (impending) fatherhood, and because I accept unequivocally that it's rational to worry about economic stability. To me it's a transient concern and certain things matter significantly more, but I've tried throughout this thread (with varying degrees of success, I fear) to be respectful of the fact that many don't share my political/philosophy priorities.

I think regulars here know I don't like Boris, but for me this was never about which individuals might temporarily run the country in the near or immediate future. Again, this has always seemed to me a legitimate but essentially transient concern, and I can honestly say I would have voted Leave even if the most likely outcome had been Jeremy Corbyn (or, worse, Blairite Labour) running the country for the next 20 years. For me this has always been about challenging various pre-suppositions about how we should be governed, about the power relationship the citizenry enjoys with those who govern on its behalf. It wasn't about quick solutions or panaceas. It was about choosing government by democratic consent (with all its maddening imperfections) over government by aloof technocracy.

I could expand on this for those who are interested, but not now. It's time for bed.

To be fair CS I think you nearly always acheive this in all your political discussions. I disagree with you on nearly everything you post but your posts are always respectful, well thought out and I always find myself questioning my own beliefs a little after reading them which I think is a thoroughly good thing.

Out of interest and purely hypothetically if they could predict the economic damage exactly at what level would it be too much for the political gain?

 

[JoeJoeJoeJoe]

The FT's Bryce Elder points out that Sterling's slump means the FTSE 100 outperformed world markets. But that told only half the story. Priced in dollars, the FTSE 100 tumbled 10.4 per cent. The daily loss was second only to its Black Monday crash of 1987, which sent the benchmark plunging 12.2 per cent in dollar terms.

 

[JoeJoeJoeJoe]

Nick Gill, automotive expert at Capgemini, said: “If I’m a carmaker and I’m taking a decision on where next to place my model, are you going to do it in a market that’s small with concerns around currency and its distribution into other markets, or will you put it [in a place] with safety in currency and a large market for sales?”

Very nicely put that work will be taken away from car manufacturers in the UK and moved to other countries eg. China/India

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

You're obviously quite proud that your cosmopolitan city voted remain. As much as I am disappointed my inbred backwater voted leave. However, I feel the need to point out that Liverpool had more leave supporters than lots of these little insignificant provincial no markers did, and ultimately it was the overall vote that triumphed. I was one of over 38k in my local authority to vote remain, but I'm careful not to tar all my neighbours who out-voted us in a truly democratic poll with the same bigoted brush you're waving about here. Maybe your city isn't the benchmark of forward thinking after all?

I'm disappointed that we've voted out, but some of the reactions from some folk who voted remain are hilarious. As disappointing as the vote was I'm quite happy we live in a country where we are allowed to vote on these decisions. The majority wanted out, those of us who wanted in need to stop crying about and move forward and make the best of what we believe is going to be a bad situation.

Of course there are people who vote both ways but the divide couldn't be starker, it was a campaign run majorly against immigration primarily and England went for it. I'm sorry but I am angry at these people and I don't care whether they're 'traditional labour', they've let us down.

 

[Abertawe]

Of course they will Joe. The referendum is over mate, you can stop project fear now...

 

[JoeJoeJoeJoe]

Of course they will Joe. The referendum is over mate, you can stop project fear now...

More project reality now

 

[toshj]

Pretty despondent over the result. Personally think that our economy is going to be the victim at the centre of a global economic gangbang for the next few years whilst things are being ironed out. I have no belief that the EU won't come down hard on us during negotiations to dissuade other countries from trying the same, and we'll still end up with the same immigration rules as before if we want to trade with them - totally nullifying the immigration/taking back our borders push.

I also think it's totally mindless to essentially self-engineer our own return to a recession in the midst of a pretty bleak global economy - the BoE had pretty much played all their hands and used all the tricks to get us out of a recession in the first place, and won't have any cards left to play to stimulate the economy sufficiently in the next couple of years.

Also, I believe lower GDP means lower corporations tax receipts, which means lower salaries and income tax/NI, which in turn will mean greater austerity. The fact that we've now given power to a single unsupervised government to write the rule book should terrify everyone. With many of the regions being anti-Tory, or anti-London or anti-bankers, they've ultimately just handed the power directly back to them - the EU enforced banker bonus cap will cease to exist, meaning that they'll be back on the big bucks (to go nicely with their salaries which had largely doubled since the credit crisis to compensate for the cap in bonuses). The real indicator in all this is where GBP will sit in the coming months, as well as the FTSE 250 which is a much greater reflection of our UK economy... it's had the biggest one day drop since Black Monday and is the main index which didn't properly rebound today (like the FTSE 100 did).

Furthermore, it was proven time and time again that they regions benefitting most from EU cash are ultimately the regions who've voted in numbers to Leave - it's like the turkeys voting for Christmas. We're going to have every country try it on with us during trade negotiations, yet we've actually very little that's physical to import, so we'll be relying on the services sector to push forward. This vote will ultimately see London shore itself up in it's own continually strengthening mini economic climate, whilst the rest of the country could really really suffer over the next few years. Pride doesn't get you anywhere on the international scene, we'll just get laughed at in negotiations if we come out with the "We're GREAT Britain, we took our borders back, we're the best".

But, that's the result of the vote. I don't believe in running a second referendum because this one didn't meet the required % to be authoritative. I believe the people have spoken and therefore the result should be respected, and that we collectively have a proper go at pushing forward as a country... but Jesus F****** Christ, why the hell have the people just chosen to shaft themselves! I'll never get it.

 

[mowgli]

Gideon as PM would be even worse than Boris.

No chance of that happening now His histrionics during the campaign means my cat has more chance of leading this country.

 

[Ciderhead]

The irony in OUR Call of Duty playing generation mocking a more experienced generation who have lived and fought in wars is quite simply priceless. Grow up.

The youngest people still alive who actually did fight in any wars are now 88 years old. So, stupid enough as that argument is already, it no longer holds any water. The generation in question actually grew up in the baby boom, the socialist resurgence after the Second World War. Not exactly the hardest time to be alive

 

[Pagnell]

Perhaps he meant the Falklands.

 

[silkyman]

The generation who benefitted the most from Europe are reaching retirement and slamming the door on everyone else.

Throwing every future generation into the unknown through some rose tinted nostalgia of a Britain that never existed.

It might work out. It might be an utter catastrophe. It will probably be somewhere in the middle, but it's going to be a fucking difficult few years while it sorts out.

 

[blade1889]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hat-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

Come on guys

 

[Ciderhead]

Hypothetically if a General Election is called, is there a possibility that a party could be formed with the intention of rejecting the referendum and remaining in the EU regardless? It isn't legally bounding, and presumably it would potentially get ~45% of the vote.

I certainly wouldn't vote for it, and I'm staunchly remain. As much as I don't like it, leaving was what our people have voted for and if government was to go against the democratic will of the public it would tear the country apart.

 

[markwwfc1992]

We're the ones that have to live with your ignorant fucking decision.

Come off it, plenty of young people voted to leave as did they to remain. Maybe students such as yourself should have gotten off your arse and voted, one the reasons Leave won was because a good amount of young people who were expected to vote remain, didn't vote at all.

Well us up here are fucked up the arse by the English again twice in two years so yeah thanks for that. Even living in America seems more pleasurable than staying in this shithole the way things have transpired.

You bottled your own referendum 2 years ago, wonder if you'll do the same next time?

 

[JoeJoeJoeJoe]

Come off it, plenty of young people voted to leave as did they to remain. Maybe students such as yourself should have gotten off your arse and voted, one the reasons Leave won was because a good amount of young people who were expected to vote remain, didn't vote at all.



You bottled your own referendum 2 years ago, wonder if you'll do the same next time?

75% of young people voted to remain.

 

[SALTIRE]

Come off it, plenty of young people voted to leave as did they to remain. Maybe students such as yourself should have gotten off your arse and voted, one the reasons Leave won was because a good amount of young people who were expected to vote remain, didn't vote at all.



You bottled your own referendum 2 years ago, wonder if you'll do the same next time?

And I blame you lot for that as well, not the honest Scottish people. If we voted tomorrow after this latest debacle, even the vast amounts of English up here would vote for us to leave the UK, or whats left of it.

 

[Blitzballer]

Nicola Sturgeon's face makes me want to vomit. Might have to block you pal ^

 

[Stevencc]

Nicola Sturgeon's face makes me want to vomit. Might have to block you pal ^

I'm not particularly fond of it either - create a specific block within uBlock Origin or Adblock and you can still read Saltire's wonderful musings without wanting to vomit...

 

[markwwfc1992]

75% of young people voted to remain.

25% of young people to leave is still a massive number (providing your source is correct). Your statement is reeks of pure ignorance anyway. 16+ million people who voted leave don't know what they're doing, but a jumped up student does?

Nobody knows what will happen in the next few years. Going into the unknown isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[SALTIRE]

I'm not particularly fond of it either - create a specific block within uBlock Origin or Adblock and you can still read Saltire's wonderful musings without wanting to vomit...

She's not a looker I grant you, but she's one of the only true politicians we still have in the UK and is many orders of magnitude better than the more mouthy others out there who spout nothing but bile yet get the votes because of fear.