European Union Referendum

[Ebeneezer Goode]

When people say "plan", what is it exactly that they're referring to? The review of the UK legal system to de-tangle it from the EU? Our future relationship with the EU? What?

 

[mnb089mnb]

This is interesting
http://jackofkent.com/2016/06/why-the-article-50-notification-is-important/

 

[mente captus]

That happens and I will fuck off to an EU country as a refugee. Germany like refugee's, right? I'll refrain from telling them I voted leave, mind you.

you made a very interesting point i think

as a refugee you would prefer countries like Germany to live in? whats wrong with Poland or Hungary?

if it is ok for you, why not for the others? why they arent allowed to come over to the UK?

 

[Captain Scumbag]

In addition to the above Nicola Sturgeon is also honouring an SNP election manifesto pledge.

Aye, a manifesto for which she failed to secure a clear democratic mandate just under two months ago. I know it's inconvenient to point this out – especially to those who prefer unthinking Sturgeon idolatry to any sort of thoughtful, fact-based analysis of Scottish politics – but the SNP has actually lost its parliamentary majority in Scotland. Saint Nicola leads a minority government.

To pretend that 6 out of 10 voting Scots favouring EU membership now means majority support in Scotland for independence (or even a second independence referendum) is the sort of reductive pish one can only come up if one is either (1) a nationalist goon hell bent on divorcing England, or (b) someone largely clueless about the dynamics of Scottish politics. The small amount of polling data produced since Friday actually shows no evidence of majority support for a second referendum, and this before we even know what the Brexit settlement will be.

Her job is literally to carry out the will of the Scottish people, and the majority of Scots voted to stay in the EU. How can she recommend to her Parliment they do anything else?

She could have reacted in various ways. Consider, for example, the following six-step process.

1. Express disappointment about the result, and express concern that Scotland will be pulled out of the single market.

2. Urge the British government to seek a withdrawal agreement that secures Britain's (and therefore Scotland's) continued participation in the single market.

3. Offer to help that effort however she could.

4. Refuse to rule out a second independence referendum but state it would be foolish to push for that before more is known about what the withdrawal settlement will entail.

5. Argue that she would pursue a second Scottish referendum if the withdrawal settlement was not, in her opinion, in Scotland's best interest.

6. Actually win a Scottish election (with a majority) before trying to push some kind of referendum bill through the Scottish Parliament.

That took me 5 minutes and I've been on the gin since midday.

But, hey, why behave like a calm and mature stateswoman when you can whinge and shit stir like some kind of opportunistic, malign dwarf?

It deflects attention away from the Named Person shambles and the £15 billion (and growing) black hole in the Scottish finances, I suppose…

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

you made a very interesting point i think

as a refugee you would prefer countries like Germany to live in? whats wrong with Poland or Hungary?

if it is ok for you, why not for the others? why they arent allowed to come over to the UK?

I don't think anyone with any sense has any animosity towards a refugee for wanting to live in a nicer country, who wouldn't? That doesn't, on the other hand, oblige us to let them. The sensible side of the immigration debate is not about disliking immigrants, it's about believing that uncontrolled mass-immigration has a net-negative effect on the country, as the Germans will soon discover.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

you made a very interesting point i think

as a refugee you would prefer countries like Germany to live in? whats wrong with Poland or Hungary?

if it is ok for you, why not for the others? why they arent allowed to come over to the UK?

Screw you then, I'll go to Ireland.

 

[Stevencc]

Aye, a manifesto for which she failed to secure a clear democratic mandate just under two months ago. I know it's inconvenient to point this out – especially to those who prefer unthinking Sturgeon idolatry to any sort of thoughtful, fact-based analysis of Scottish politics – but the SNP has actually lost its parliamentary majority in Scotland. Saint Nicola leads a minority government.

To pretend that 6 out of 10 voting Scots favouring EU membership now means majority support in Scotland for independence (or even a second independence referendum) is the sort of reductive pish one can only come up if one is either (1) a nationalist goon hell bent on divorcing England, or (b) someone largely clueless about the dynamics of Scottish politics. The small amount of polling data produced since Friday actually shows no evidence of majority support for a second referendum, and this before we even know what the Brexit settlement will be.

She could have reacted in various ways. Consider, for example, the following six-step process.

1. Express disappointment about the result, and express concern that Scotland will be pulled out of the single market.

2. Urge the British government to seek a withdrawal agreement that secures Britain's (and therefore Scotland's) continued participation in the single market.

3. Offer to help that effort however she could.

4. Refuse to rule out a second independence referendum but state it would be foolish to push for that before more is known about what the withdrawal settlement will entail.

5. Argue that she would pursue a second Scottish referendum if the withdrawal settlement was not, in her opinion, in Scotland's best interest.

6. Actually win a Scottish election (with a majority) before trying to push some kind of referendum bill through the Scottish Parliament.

That took me 5 minutes and I've been on the gin since midday.

But, hey, why behave like a calm and mature stateswoman when you can whinge and shit stir like some kind of opportunistic, malign dwarf?

It deflects attention away from the Named Person shambles and the £15 billion (and growing) black hole in the Scottish finances, I suppose…

Insightful and informative summation from Captain Scumbag here.

I wonder if SALTIRE fancies offering up riposte...

 

[Techno Natch]

A think tank that wanted to leave the EU?

No drug policy but the same rule still applies. How can you say "We want this to happen but we haven't got a clue how you do it?" Do you think that's a good approach?

I'm not sure if They had a plan or not just challenging the idea that if you are going to campaign for something you should at least have some viable solution. These are after all meant to be intelligent people with far more knowledge and experience than most of us.

 

[T.A]

No drug policy but the same rule still applies. How can you say "We want this to happen but we haven't got a clue how you do it?" Do you think that's a good approach?

I'm not sure if They had a plan or not just challenging the idea that if you are going to campaign for something you should at least have some viable solution. These are after all meant to be intelligent people with far more knowledge and experience than most of us.

You're talking about Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage. Boris is a class clown that craves attention good or bad. Farage is not even an MP. He's not even good at public speaking when it's longer than a 30 second sound bite. The worrying thing is not leaving the EU it's who's leading us when we leave the EU.

 

[Benji]

What's the Brexit plan?

 

[Captain Scumbag]

There was actually a massive – but largely unreported – spat within the Leave camp before any campaigning began about whether it should endorse an official exit plan. The whole business is too complicated and depressing to recount in full here, but the gist is that guys like Richard North (who has produced an exit plan) were marginalised in favour of those who wanted to keep it simple.

I don't defend that (in fact, I argued strongly against it), but the basic expectation among Brexiters that the government and CIvil Service would draw up detailed contingency plans really isn't that unreasonable. David Cameron called the referendum. He didn't have to and he MUST have known there was a possibility of losing the vote. If the government didn't plan for that contingency (which of course we don't know at this stage) it would be the height of arrogant folly and a truly shocking dereliction of duty.

It's also worth noting, IMO, that there are limits to what the Leave campaign could have done here. It could have articulated a detailed plan, made clear its key objectives and so forth, but the plain truth that neither it nor the government can determine the outcome of a negotiation. Article 50 makes it clear that an official application to withdraw triggers a 2 year negotiation between the EU and the British government. Even if the Leave campaign produced a genius-level plan and the British government followed it to the letter, there is no guarantee that the EU would agree to it.

One of the worst aspects of the referendum campaign was how little this was discussed. For example, was David Cameron (the man responsible for this situation more than any other) even asked to sketch out a contingency plan for Brexit?

 

[CEngelbrecht]

To pretend that 6 out of 10 voting Scots favouring EU membership now means majority support in Scotland for independence (or even a second independence referendum) is the sort of reductive pish one can only come up if one is either (1) a nationalist goon hell bent on divorcing England, or (b) someone largely clueless about the dynamics of Scottish politics. The small amount of polling data produced since Friday actually shows no evidence of majority support for a second referendum, and this before we even know what the Brexit settlement will be.

No, agreed, the referendum in '14 showed that the Scouts wants to stay British, and why the hell shouldn't they be? But this here referendum also shows, that they are not ready to abandon the game theory project called the European Union just from short term crises. The day after the outcome it became clear, that they don't want to have to choose, but now they're being forced to.

There's no bloody winners from this. Well, except for all Europe's enemies.

 

[Kopper]

Aye, a manifesto for which she failed to secure a clear democratic mandate just under two months ago. I know it's inconvenient to point this out – especially to those who prefer unthinking Sturgeon idolatry to any sort of thoughtful, fact-based analysis of Scottish politics – but the SNP has actually lost its parliamentary majority in Scotland. Saint Nicola leads a minority government.

To pretend that 6 out of 10 voting Scots favouring EU membership now means majority support in Scotland for independence (or even a second independence referendum) is the sort of reductive pish one can only come up if one is either (1) a nationalist goon hell bent on divorcing England, or (b) someone largely clueless about the dynamics of Scottish politics. The small amount of polling data produced since Friday actually shows no evidence of majority support for a second referendum, and this before we even know what the Brexit settlement will be.

She could have reacted in various ways. Consider, for example, the following six-step process.

1. Express disappointment about the result, and express concern that Scotland will be pulled out of the single market.

2. Urge the British government to seek a withdrawal agreement that secures Britain's (and therefore Scotland's) continued participation in the single market.

3. Offer to help that effort however she could.

4. Refuse to rule out a second independence referendum but state it would be foolish to push for that before more is known about what the withdrawal settlement will entail.

5. Argue that she would pursue a second Scottish referendum if the withdrawal settlement was not, in her opinion, in Scotland's best interest.

6. Actually win a Scottish election (with a majority) before trying to push some kind of referendum bill through the Scottish Parliament.

That took me 5 minutes and I've been on the gin since midday.

But, hey, why behave like a calm and mature stateswoman when you can whinge and shit stir like some kind of opportunistic, malign dwarf?

It deflects attention away from the Named Person shambles and the £15 billion (and growing) black hole in the Scottish finances, I suppose…

If Scotland vote to stay a part of the EU and England and Wales vote to leave. What choice does FM Sturgeon have other than to raise the prospect of a second referendum? Even if she asked Westiminster to negotiate for favourable terms for Scotland and the union as a whole. What guarantee does she have they will deliver. Even if they were successful whose to say they would honour any agreement, especially in light of the (supposed) broken promises after the first referendum.

You might argue Scotland's fiscal debt doesn't meet EU criteria for entry. But neither did Greece's until Goldman Sach hid that debt.

Maybe Goldman would be up for it again?

 

[Techno Natch]

There was actually a massive – but largely unreported – spat within the Leave camp before any campaigning began about whether it should endorse an official exit plan. The whole business is too complicated and depressing to recount in full here, but the gist is that guys like Richard North (who has produced an exit plan) were marginalised in favour of those who wanted to keep it simple.

I don't defend that (in fact, I argued strongly against it), but the basic expectation among Brexiters that the government and CIvil Service would draw up detailed contingency plans really isn't that unreasonable. David Cameron called the referendum. He didn't have to and he MUST have known there was a possibility of losing the vote. If the government didn't plan for that contingency (which of course we don't know at this stage) it would be the height of arrogant folly and a truly shocking dereliction of duty.

It's also worth noting, IMO, that there are limits to what the Leave campaign could have done here. It could have articulated a detailed plan, made clear its key objectives and so forth, but the plain truth that neither it nor the government can determine the outcome of a negotiation. Article 50 makes it clear that an official application to withdraw triggers a 2 year negotiation between the EU and the British government. Even if the Leave campaign produced a genius-level plan and the British government followed it to the letter, there is no guarantee that the EU would agree to it.

One of the worst aspects of the referendum campaign was how little this was discussed. For example, was David Cameron (the man responsible for this situation more than any other) even asked to sketch out a contingency plan for Brexit?

Yep completely agree that Cameron etc are also responsible and event arrogant to put a plan to the public without back ups incase things went against them. He clearly used it as a tool to unite the euro skeptics with him believing that the vast majority would vote to remain.

As I alluded to earlier despite being a rabid anti boarders left winger I was open to us leaving the EU but both sides managed to piss me off to the point where I didn't even want to vote.

We've all been let down by those at the top but will as usual blame each other. Bunch of headless chickens with massive egos.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

No drug policy but the same rule still applies. How can you say "We want this to happen but we haven't got a clue how you do it?" Do you think that's a good approach?

I don't know what the alternative is when the outcome depends largely on what other EU members are willing to agree to.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

No, agreed, the referendum in '14 showed that the Scouts wants to stay British, and why the hell shouldn't they be?

I don't see what the Scouts have to do with anything, they're not even old enough to vote.

 

[mnb089mnb]

I don't see what the Scouts have to do with anything, they're not even old enough to vote.

That's bollocks mate. You can be a Scout up to the age of 25.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

I don't see what the Scouts have to do with anything, they're not even old enough to vote.

Take it up with the BBC.
(Fuck, what would they have to be called, if this shit shatters both the UK and Great Britain?)

 

[JJ1532]

Sky News Newsdesk ‏@SkyNewsBreak 2m2 minutes ago
Boris Johnson says he does not believe those who voted for the UK to leave the EU were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration

Future Prime Minister there people. Jesus wept.

 

[Techno Natch]

I don't know what the alternative is when the outcome depends largely on what other EU members are willing to agree to.

Yeah you don't but it's the job of those people who are high up and pushing for change to try to find out what the alternatives are. The plans don't even have to be accurate in the long run but there should at least be one surely?

I want world peace please vote for it but by the way I have no idea how this can be achieved.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Here's our prime minister in waiting...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/

Backpedaling on his Boris bike.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Yeah you don't but it's the job of those people who are high up and pushing for change to try to find out what the alternatives are. The plans don't even have to be accurate in the long run but there should at least be one surely?

I want world peace please vote for it but by the way I have no idea how this can be achieved.

More like, you'll get your world peace but we don't know exactly what that'll look like.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

More like, you'll get your world peace but we don't know exactly what that'll look like.

That book's called Watchmen.

 

[Techno Natch]

More like, you'll get your world peace but we don't know exactly what that'll look like.

I wouldn't personally vote or campaign for something that vague though even if I firmly believe in the cause.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Sky News Newsdesk ‏@SkyNewsBreak 2m2 minutes ago
Boris Johnson says he does not believe those who voted for the UK to leave the EU were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration

Future Prime Minister there people. Jesus wept.

And what's he meant to say? Yup, if we do leave we're going to aim to enter the EEA requiring movement of labour, soz lads and lasses.

 

[Abertawe]

I wouldn't personally vote or campaign for something that vague though even if I firmly believe in the cause.

Pussyo.

 

[Techno Natch]

Pussyo.

Probably your best and most well thought out contribution to the thread so far.

 

[Abertawe]

Probably your best and most well thought out contribution to the thread so far.

You've just openly admitted you have no conviction, it's people like you that hold this country back. A man that doesn't have the courage of his convictions isn't a man at all. Always go for what you believe in (firmly believe in if we're using your words), otherwise you will never make progress or achieve anything of importance. You resonate pure cowardice my friend. Fight for your firm beliefs, don't stay a coward.

 

[Destruction]

Probably your best and most well thought out contribution to the thread so far.

Enjoy him while he lasts, he's only here cos the EU has funded broadband in Wales. But not for much longer...

 

[Abertawe]

Enjoy him while he lasts, he's only here cos the EU has funded broadband in Wales. But not for much longer...

Don't let the fact I'm in Manchester get in the way of your atrocious jokes.