European Union Referendum

[CEngelbrecht]

Now you look this shit up, after the vote. Well done, lads.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Okay, I see now what you're doing. You've not actually got anything to input but you still wish to score a "win". Hence the out of context but not factually incorrect replies. I'm not sure if you're someone who just has the habit of repeating factoids they've memorized from the mainstream news or if you're purposely being a patronizing overlord. Either way, if you're going to quote me at least make it relevant to the post you've quoted. Muchas gracias.

I was going to reply to your post about Polish people, but it appears to have been removed.

Put me on Ignore if you like. You seem pretty annoyed for someone who "has their country back"

 

[Abertawe]

I was going to reply to your post about Polish people, but it appears to have been removed.

Nice ambiguous reply. I can only assume it went down due to the language aimed at the Danish fruitcake. As you well know, there wasn't any material relating to "Polish people" that could be deemed offensive. You're actually quite lacking aren't you?

 

[spireite]

Now you look this shit up, after the vote. Well done, lads.

Why are you so angry about it anyway?

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Why are you so angry about it anyway?

What the fuck do you mean, why am I angry about it??? You think you're alone in the world?

 

[markwwfc1992]

So CEnelbrecht is still in an uncontrollable fit of rage?

Like it or not, we have left the EU. The British people have spoken, Not Sweden. Maybe try and add something useful to this thread instead of talking absolute biased shite and down talking to people who have a different view to you. Most posters on both sides have made good points here, but it's buried in deep inside this thread by your inane doom posts.

Jesus Christ

 

[spireite]

What the fuck do you mean, why am I angry about it??? You think you're alone in the world?

It doesn't directly affect you nearly so much as everyone else in this thread, including the decent majority who wanted to remain, but you're the only one going crazy. You should take it down a gear before you burst a blood vessel or something

 

[Abertawe]

What the fuck do you mean, why am I angry about it??? You think you're alone in the world?

I think you should give this a listen, mate.

 

[Kopper]

Look, people voting both ways did so for a variety of reasons. Some good, others not. A hell of a lot of Remain voters trot out lines like "the EU gives us maternity leave" or "the EU gives us gay marriage". You know, stuff that's just complete and utter nonsense. There's also an astonishing number of people for whom a vote to Remain was a demonstration that they like foreigners and are a nice person. They haven't the foggiest idea about any of the political, cultural, economic or judicial arguments and don't understand what the EU actually does.

A big error by the Remain camp was to try to tell everyone life now is great and they were putting it all at risk by voting out. With all due respect, people in large parts of post-industrial Britain have little or nothing to lose. When you don't own a house, can't get full-time work and the bulk of your experience of immigration comes down to competing with the surfeit of low-skilled European workers for jobs, the EU hasn't worked for you. To be fair to the less disingenuous members of the Remain camp, I think they do at least acknowledge this. It's just that large swathes of middle class and/or metropolitan Britain didn't notice or, more likely, didn't care.

It would be lovely if the country could come together now. The Remainers should stop smearing all Leavers as racist and thick. They should stop talking about secessionist movements in various random parts of the UK. They should just accept the result and get on with it.

Likewise, the authorities need to crack down hard on what does appear to be an increase in the level of hate crime. I do think the increase in the number of racist incidents has been exaggerated for political purposes, I must say. Although ultimately this may be no bad thing as I suspect various unpleasant things that people experienced or witnessed probably went unreported more often before the referendum result. Now there's an eagerness to highlight each and every incident.

What happened to that emergency punishment budget, by the way? Nowhere to be seen? Looks like a lie that dwarfs the £350m per week line that while factually accurate, was presented in a misleading way.

Those who voted leave did so without much thought. Saying remainers shouldn't think of leavers as xenophobic or stupid is to ask them, to ignore the obvious.

Most of post industrial England haven't seen low unemployment rates for decades. Even prior to mass immigration. For those of you who don't know what I mean, I'm talking about the 1980's.
High unemployment, high interest rates and social unrest.

Brexit changes nothing as even if we could reduce immigration to 1980 levels and remove every single immigrant who has travelled here in that time. We still wouldn't have a manufacturing base to supply large parts of the north with jobs. And even if it were possible to restore industrial Britain, we couldn't get British people to work for wages that would compete with India and China in the global workforce.

The sovereignty argument is vapid. Only a superpower exercises sovereignty. Everyone else has to compromise. Just like we're going to be doing with the single market.

If we leave the single market we'll need to find a market for 45% of our exports. If any government could've found such markets, it would have and exited the EU without a referendum.

Neither do we save £350m a week as that's the price of access to the single market. We don't need an emergency budget as we haven't left the EU. But if we did leave (including the EEA) we'd need a budget to reflect our reduced economic activity.

Everything I've written is known to brexiters, but they chose to ignore it Preferring to listen to the lies of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage. Voting for a dream that can never be.

I think John Lydon said it best "There's no future in England's dreaming".

Look, people voting both ways did so for a variety of reasons. Some good, others not. A hell of a lot of Remain voters trot out lines like "the EU gives us maternity leave" or "the EU gives us gay marriage". You know, stuff that's just complete and utter nonsense. There's also an astonishing number of people for whom a vote to Remain was a demonstration that they like foreigners and are a nice person. They haven't the foggiest idea about any of the political, cultural, economic or judicial arguments and don't understand what the EU actually does.

A big error by the Remain camp was to try to tell everyone life now is great and they were putting it all at risk by voting out. With all due respect, people in large parts of post-industrial Britain have little or nothing to lose. When you don't own a house, can't get full-time work and the bulk of your experience of immigration comes down to competing with the surfeit of low-skilled European workers for jobs, the EU hasn't worked for you. To be fair to the less disingenuous members of the Remain camp, I think they do at least acknowledge this. It's just that large swathes of middle class and/or metropolitan Britain didn't notice or, more likely, didn't care.

It would be lovely if the country could come together now. The Remainers should stop smearing all Leavers as racist and thick. They should stop talking about secessionist movements in various random parts of the UK. They should just accept the result and get on with it.

Likewise, the authorities need to crack down hard on what does appear to be an increase in the level of hate crime. I do think the increase in the number of racist incidents has been exaggerated for political purposes, I must say. Although ultimately this may be no bad thing as I suspect various unpleasant things that people experienced or witnessed probably went unreported more often before the referendum result. Now there's an eagerness to highlight each and every incident.

What happened to that emergency punishment budget, by the way? Nowhere to be seen? Looks like a lie that dwarfs the £350m per week line that while factually accurate, was presented in a misleading way.

Look, people voting both ways did so for a variety of reasons. Some good, others not. A hell of a lot of Remain voters trot out lines like "the EU gives us maternity leave" or "the EU gives us gay marriage". You know, stuff that's just complete and utter nonsense. There's also an astonishing number of people for whom a vote to Remain was a demonstration that they like foreigners and are a nice person. They haven't the foggiest idea about any of the political, cultural, economic or judicial arguments and don't understand what the EU actually does.

A big error by the Remain camp was to try to tell everyone life now is great and they were putting it all at risk by voting out. With all due respect, people in large parts of post-industrial Britain have little or nothing to lose. When you don't own a house, can't get full-time work and the bulk of your experience of immigration comes down to competing with the surfeit of low-skilled European workers for jobs, the EU hasn't worked for you. To be fair to the less disingenuous members of the Remain camp, I think they do at least acknowledge this. It's just that large swathes of middle class and/or metropolitan Britain didn't notice or, more likely, didn't care.

It would be lovely if the country could come together now. The Remainers should stop smearing all Leavers as racist and thick. They should stop talking about secessionist movements in various random parts of the UK. They should just accept the result and get on with it.

Likewise, the authorities need to crack down hard on what does appear to be an increase in the level of hate crime. I do think the increase in the number of racist incidents has been exaggerated for political purposes, I must say. Although ultimately this may be no bad thing as I suspect various unpleasant things that people experienced or witnessed probably went unreported more often before the referendum result. Now there's an eagerness to highlight each and every incident.

What happened to that emergency punishment budget, by the way? Nowhere to be seen? Looks like a lie that dwarfs the £350m per week line that while factually accurate, was presented in a misleading way.

Look, people voting both ways did so for a variety of reasons. Some good, others not. A hell of a lot of Remain voters trot out lines like "the EU gives us maternity leave" or "the EU gives us gay marriage". You know, stuff that's just complete and utter nonsense. There's also an astonishing number of people for whom a vote to Remain was a demonstration that they like foreigners and are a nice person. They haven't the foggiest idea about any of the political, cultural, economic or judicial arguments and don't understand what the EU actually does.

A big error by the Remain camp was to try to tell everyone life now is great and they were putting it all at risk by voting out. With all due respect, people in large parts of post-industrial Britain have little or nothing to lose. When you don't own a house, can't get full-time work and the bulk of your experience of immigration comes down to competing with the surfeit of low-skilled European workers for jobs, the EU hasn't worked for you. To be fair to the less disingenuous members of the Remain camp, I think they do at least acknowledge this. It's just that large swathes of middle class and/or metropolitan Britain didn't notice or, more likely, didn't care.

It would be lovely if the country could come together now. The Remainers should stop smearing all Leavers as racist and thick. They should stop talking about secessionist movements in various random parts of the UK. They should just accept the result and get on with it.

Likewise, the authorities need to crack down hard on what does appear to be an increase in the level of hate crime. I do think the increase in the number of racist incidents has been exaggerated for political purposes, I must say. Although ultimately this may be no bad thing as I suspect various unpleasant things that people experienced or witnessed probably went unreported more often before the referendum result. Now there's an eagerness to highlight each and every incident.

What happened to that emergency punishment budget, by the way? Nowhere to be seen? Looks like a lie that dwarfs the £350m per week line that while factually accurate, was presented in a misleading way.

 

[Benji]

Can someone keep an eye on Boris? I'm worried about him.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Nice ambiguous reply. I can only assume it went down due to the language aimed at the Danish fruitcake. As you well know, there wasn't any material relating to "Polish people" that could be deemed offensive. You're actually quite lacking aren't you?

I think lumping all recent Polish immigrants into one pot of "bad" isn't a sensible thing. Personal opinion. Many would disagree. Not really sure where you're coming from, it's just continued ad hominem attacks. Seems weird to me.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Like it or not, we have left the EU.

Like it or not, we haven't left the EU.

UK government has to negotiate an exit that balances the people's will to see fewer immigrants whilst getting a good trading agreement. You've got a sliding scale on one side of annoying the far right and on the other of destroying the economy.

It's not as simple as just leaving the EU. If it were, we'd have started the procedure of leaving already.

 

[markwwfc1992]

Like it or not, we haven't left the EU.

UK government has to negotiate an exit that balances the people's will to see fewer immigrants whilst getting a good trading agreement. You've got a sliding scale on one side of annoying the far right and on the other of destroying the economy.

It's not as simple as just leaving the EU. If it were, we'd have started the procedure of leaving already.

You know what I mean, we have voted to leave. Article 50 will trigger the process.

 

[mnb089mnb]

So, while we’re talking about second referendums and so forth, I’d just like to throw this out there.

The question on the ballot paper was whether Britain should leave or remain in the EU. There was nothing on there about the single market. This matters because the EU is not the single market. During the campaign, presumably for reasons of political expediency, neither side drew much attention to this. But it matters, especially now.

The single market is the 31-member state EEA agreement. This mostly comprises the 28 EU members, but it also includes the three EFTA members, namely Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein. Those EFTA/EEA members enjoy full access to the single market without being bound by the Common External Tariff or the Common Commercial Policy.

While far from ideal, some kind of EFTA/EEA type agreement might be the most sensible compromise. I'm simplifying here (necessarily, because if I tried to explain in full I'd be typing till dawn), but basically we'd leave the EU but continue to participate in the single market. From a Leave perspective, the advantages are obvious. We'd enjoy various benefits of withdrawal and immediately nullify all of Remain's economic arguments The catch is that continued participation in the single market means conceding freedom of movement (see the "four freedoms" stated in the EEA agreement).

Richard North, who wrote the best book that exists on the EU, explains this much better than I ever could. I've linked a few people (mostly Remainers) to his work in recent months, but now seems a good time to recommend it more widely. For the brave, there's a 400+ page PDF document (“Flexit”) that can be downloaded for free on his website. For the more sensible among us, just google "Flexit the Movie". There should be a 60-90 minute presentation on YouTube. Have a watch, preferably with an open mind. North has forgotten more about this subject than most of us will ever know. He's not a Tory right-winger or free market ideologue. He's actually spent most of the campaign criticising Vote Leave.

FWIW, I could just about live with this. It's an olive branch I'd be willing to extend – partly in recognition that we won by a small margin, partly in recognition that some compromise is needed to unify the country, and partly because in the short term it might be the most sensible exit plan we have. It would absolutely require another referendum, though. Many Leave voters did vote thinking that meant an end to freedom of movement; to push forward with something like this without putting it to a referendum would be a terrible betrayal.

Any thoughts appreciated.

To rewind to an earlier post in the thread which I think covers the current situation quite well.*

*where Capitan Scumbag misspells Liechtenstein as you'd expect an arrogant, isolationist Leave campaigner to.

 

[Abertawe]

I think lumping all recent Polish immigrants into one pot of "bad" isn't a sensible thing. Personal opinion. Many would disagree. Not really sure where you're coming from, it's just continued ad hominem attacks. Seems weird to me.

I didn't and I resent your accusation as untrue, as such I've reported this post. You've got a thing for me, it's not mutual. Stop quoting me and certainly don't make shit up. You're actually as desperate as to make stuff up, I must say I'm surprised.

 

[smat]

#togetherstronger #wales

 

[Abertawe]

He ain't Welsh.

 

[mnb089mnb]

He ain't Welsh.

You aint no Welshman bruv.

 

[mnb089mnb]

This from Gary Younge in the Guardian is interesting on a few different subjects. Tis long though.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/30/brexit-disaster-decades-in-the-making

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Haven't been around or online so much for a few days but I gather the financial markets have recovered quite nicely.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

To rewind to an earlier post in the thread which I think covers the current situation quite well.*

*where Capitan Scumbag misspells Liechtenstein as you'd expect an arrogant, isolationist Leave campaigner to.

At least I can spell Captain....

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Haven't been around or online so much for a few days but I gather the financial markets have recovered quite nicely.

Uhuh.
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=1W
Ten percent off the £, lads. And it ain't going anywhere.

 

[Pilgrim Meister]

The pound being low has made it cheaper for foreign investment, hence markets going up. If the markets rise fast enough, the value of the pound will start to creep up slowly, but it will take it's time

 

[markwwfc1992]

At least I can spell Captain....

Always makes me laugh when people go down the spelling and grammar route to try and get some sort of moral high ground, yet fail to spell simple words themselves...

 

[Pagnell]

I think you've just misunderstood what happened.

 

[silkyman]

Uhuh.
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=1W
Ten percent off the £, lads. And it ain't going anywhere.

FTSE 250 still a long way down.

Basically the markets were hit after the vote. But then... Nothing happened. No Article 50, and both sides imploded. With nothing set to happen until September, things will stabilise for a bit. Then we see what happens as people wait and see. Foreign investment could drop etc.

But we saw what happened in the hours after the result of what is still only legally an opinion poll was announced. Think about what might happen when Article 50 is actually invoked.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

You know, for all I care Westminster can freely ignore those four percent in the wrong. And if people start giving them shit, they can tell them two words: "Tommy Mair."

 

[mnb089mnb]

Always makes me laugh when people go down the spelling and grammar route to try and get some sort of moral high ground, yet fail to spell simple words themselves...

It was a joke. And I'm sure Siptom Bumbag knew that.

 

[Camborne Gills]

You really don't understand game theory, do you?
And for one, I'm quite paranoid about Putin's Russia. And the EU project was our best angle towards his madness. Which is obviously why he's trying to tear the EU apart. And has succeeded. I guess I just don't appreciate the Machiavellian method to triumph. Or hell, maybe I was a closet subject untill a week ago, and Britain in the EU was the closest I would ever get to be British. Take your pick.

Obviously not.

I don't get your Putin theory. Perhaps the last sentence makes more sense.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/30/brexit-disaster-decades-in-the-making

"[...] nativist parties always play best during times of recession, when resources are scarce and people are looking for someone to blame. In a letter from 1870 that, with a few words changed, could have been written any time in the past few years, Karl Marx vividly described this dynamic: “Every industrial and commercial centre in England possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life … This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes.”"

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Instead of the Irish, these days it's the Poles. Same shit, different bog.