European Union Referendum

[CEngelbrecht]

 

[blade1889]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...k_57737efce4b081f48abaa055?w3ez88yosj71hbbj4i

 

[silkyman]

Great reasons people voted leave:

To put an end to foreign aid until we've 'looked after our own'

That'll be foreign aid that is done as a part of being in NATO, yeah?

 

[silkyman]

Shouldn't Wales be Northern Ireland in this one?

 

[silkyman]

A

Shouldn't Wales be Northern Ireland in this one?

And you don't need Cornwall.

 

[shane]

We've got our country back, deal with it.

At the very least, PLEASE don't use that phrase.

 

[Alty]

Great reasons people voted leave:

To put an end to foreign aid until we've 'looked after our own'

That'll be foreign aid that is done as a part of being in NATO, yeah?

Look, people voting both ways did so for a variety of reasons. Some good, others not. A hell of a lot of Remain voters trot out lines like "the EU gives us maternity leave" or "the EU gives us gay marriage". You know, stuff that's just complete and utter nonsense. There's also an astonishing number of people for whom a vote to Remain was a demonstration that they like foreigners and are a nice person. They haven't the foggiest idea about any of the political, cultural, economic or judicial arguments and don't understand what the EU actually does.

A big error by the Remain camp was to try to tell everyone life now is great and they were putting it all at risk by voting out. With all due respect, people in large parts of post-industrial Britain have little or nothing to lose. When you don't own a house, can't get full-time work and the bulk of your experience of immigration comes down to competing with the surfeit of low-skilled European workers for jobs, the EU hasn't worked for you. To be fair to the less disingenuous members of the Remain camp, I think they do at least acknowledge this. It's just that large swathes of middle class and/or metropolitan Britain didn't notice or, more likely, didn't care.

It would be lovely if the country could come together now. The Remainers should stop smearing all Leavers as racist and thick. They should stop talking about secessionist movements in various random parts of the UK. They should just accept the result and get on with it.

Likewise, the authorities need to crack down hard on what does appear to be an increase in the level of hate crime. I do think the increase in the number of racist incidents has been exaggerated for political purposes, I must say. Although ultimately this may be no bad thing as I suspect various unpleasant things that people experienced or witnessed probably went unreported more often before the referendum result. Now there's an eagerness to highlight each and every incident.

What happened to that emergency punishment budget, by the way? Nowhere to be seen? Looks like a lie that dwarfs the £350m per week line that while factually accurate, was presented in a misleading way.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Likewise, the authorities need to crack down hard on what does appear to be an increase in the level of hate crime. I do think the increase in the number of racist incidents has been exaggerated for political purposes, I must say. Although ultimately this may be no bad thing as I suspect various unpleasant things that people experienced or witnessed probably went unreported more often before the referendum result. Now there's an eagerness to highlight each and every incident.

It's fair enough to think that. If I voted Leave that's what I'd be telling myself too.

 

[Abertawe]

The referendum was on EU membership, not immigration.

We could end up with the UK out of the EU but maintaining the free movement of people to ensure we can still have free trade.

Show me where I've said otherwise. Really bizarre retort from you tbfh. I don't know why you would trot that out given I was responding to silk specifically regarding immigration.

And I think it's pretty clear that complete free movement of people isn't gonna happen. The only indication we've had is that skilled worker from the EU (Doctors etc) will be given a free pass, which is only sensible. I don't think anyone with a sprinkling on intelligence has suggested that all immigration is bad, merely it's got to work for the best interests of this country & it's citizens.
---------
Markets & the pound show growth for the second day in a row. This armageddon is a bit shit...

 

[Alty]

It's fair enough to think that. If I voted Leave that's what I'd be telling myself too.

That some wankers have felt emboldened to be more openly racist but that it's not actually the vote that suddenly switched people from tolerance to intolerance? It's a fair assumption, isn't it? By all means point out the error in my thinking.

In any case, I'm still confident I voted the right way. I want to live in a democratic country and I want the same for other European countries. I made my case to friends, family and randomers on the internet in a way that actually focused very little on immigration. I genuinely regret that Leave went so hard on immigration in their campaigning, much as I do that Remain talked the idea of an independent Britain down so much that I think they may well have made life more difficult for us in the short-term by reducing the confidence in the markets and even everyday people's belief that this country can succeed. But then I seem to remember you and I predicting this may well be exactly what it would come down to.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Look, people voting both ways did so for a variety of reasons. Some good, others not. A hell of a lot of Remain voters trot out lines like "the EU gives us maternity leave" or "the EU gives us gay marriage". You know, stuff that's just complete and utter nonsense. There's also an astonishing number of people for whom a vote to Remain was a demonstration that they like foreigners and are a nice person. They haven't the foggiest idea about any of the political, cultural, economic or judicial arguments and don't understand what the EU actually does.

A big error by the Remain camp was to try to tell everyone life now is great and they were putting it all at risk by voting out. With all due respect, people in large parts of post-industrial Britain have little or nothing to lose. When you don't own a house, can't get full-time work and the bulk of your experience of immigration comes down to competing with the surfeit of low-skilled European workers for jobs, the EU hasn't worked for you. To be fair to the less disingenuous members of the Remain camp, I think they do at least acknowledge this. It's just that large swathes of middle class and/or metropolitan Britain didn't notice or, more likely, didn't care.

It would be lovely if the country could come together now. The Remainers should stop smearing all Leavers as racist and thick. They should stop talking about secessionist movements in various random parts of the UK. They should just accept the result and get on with it.

Likewise, the authorities need to crack down hard on what does appear to be an increase in the level of hate crime. I do think the increase in the number of racist incidents has been exaggerated for political purposes, I must say. Although ultimately this may be no bad thing as I suspect various unpleasant things that people experienced or witnessed probably went unreported more often before the referendum result. Now there's an eagerness to highlight each and every incident.

What happened to that emergency punishment budget, by the way? Nowhere to be seen? Looks like a lie that dwarfs the £350m per week line that while factually accurate, was presented in a misleading way.

You would not be saying this if it was the other way round, Farage and your ilk would be rabbiting on forever. It is not the role of the Remain camp to roll over and let this country be taken over the right-wing that has undoubtedly inspired the Brexit vote. We should do our best to smother the worst repercussions of this vote and make it as limp a 'brexit' as we can.

Already looks like this is going to happen. All the prominent leave campaigners aside from Farage want to stay in the EEA, and know that is conditional on freedom of movement. How will they break this to the vast swathes of people who voted because they hate immigrants? If we don't get that access then things could look very grim indeed. The emergency budget was a pathetic threat from Osborne but I don't think it's outrageous to say that this is early days, we can't gauge much yet as we are still shielded.

 

[T.A]

Show me where I've said otherwise. Really bizarre retort from you tbfh. I don't know why you would trot that out given I was responding to silk specifically regarding immigration.

And I think it's pretty clear that complete free movement of people isn't gonna happen. The only indication we've had is that skilled worker from the EU (Doctors etc) will be given a free pass, which is only sensible. I don't think anyone with a sprinkling on intelligence has suggested that all immigration is bad, merely it's got to work for the best interests of this country & it's citizens.
---------
Markets & the pound show growth for the second day in a row. This armageddon is a bit shit...

Yeah mental that nothing's changed in the market when we haven't actually triggered the clause yet. We're still in the EU and will be until at least we get a new prime minister. We won't see the effects at the very least until then.

Btw I'm not saying it will be Armageddon when this happens either but to gloat it was a right decision now when we've not even left is stupid.

 

[Bobbin']

Yeah mental that nothing's changed in the market when we haven't actually triggered the clause yet. We're still in the EU and will be until at least we get a new prime minister. We won't see the effects at the very least until then.

Btw I'm not saying it will be Armageddon when this happens either but to gloat it was a right decision now when we've not even left is stupid.

No more stupid than the remainers going on as if the world was close to ending these last 5 days.

 

[Pilgrim Meister]

After today, its looking more and more likely that EEA with all the strings attached (FoM) will be accepted but in protest.

They won't risk the banks leaving, as if they do, creditors could call in Government loans, all bonds sold off, and eventual Bankruptcy, with the IMF left to clean up the mess.

I have suggested using money saved from EU membership to offset the Banking sector, reducing Co-operation tax and making deals with Tariff reductions in exchange for an EU workers rule, but I got shouted down saying its a pipe dream.

The issue then is that unless Labour sort themselves out, large parts of the UK could elect UKIP MPs into Parliament, but Labour and the Tories likely to join forces to vote out any risk to leaving the EEA.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

What're you gonna do now? Go back to your colonial roots? BP is no longer the ruling class in Iran, nor is it anywhere in Africa. And the East Indian Trading Company? Sorry, lads, the Caribbean is spoken for. India? There's a bit of a struggle there, if those Asian companies make good on their plans to push aside the Brits as their brokers to the EU. Then what're you gonna do???

Your best shot was the EU project. English is even the work language in the EU Parliament. Even the proud French accepted that!

 

[T.A]

No more stupid than the remainers going on as if the world was close to ending these last 5 days.

Stupidity can happen anywhere and at anytime. People jump into react when they should be listening to what's actually happening. Something our country is not very good at.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

To reiterate from moderator's delete (too much Gordon Ramsay on my part, but I'm angry, this is such an important point, I will hammer it into your skulls, if I have to):

Everybody's been talking [crap] about the Poles all through this. The [...] Poles??? If the British owe anyone reparations, it's the [...] Poles. The UK went into World War 2 on the defence of Poland, but when push came, they never lifted a finger for her defence. Churchill even gave Poland to Stalin at Yalta in exchange for Stalin giving up on Greece, robbing Poland of democracy for four and a half decades more. The least you English could do with something like the EU project is allowing the Poles to come over and make an honest quid doing your [...] jobs. Instead of [whining] like little children just because you hear Polish spoken in your streets!

But at least now we have seen the true colors of the English; selfish and xenophopic. That's how you were all time, weren't you? You want out? Good riddance. Scotland, you're more than welcome to stay. Northern Ireland, go right ahead and go home to Éire, it was high time anyway.

And do yourselves a big favour and spell your way through this:
http://www.bt.dk/udland/briterne-kan-slet-ikke-klare-sig-uden-os-haardtarbejdende-oesteuropaeere
https://translate.google.com/#en/da

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This is your country! You really want to be known as the skunk of the world? And for what???

 

[blade1889]

You're doing a great job of making me think this was a good idea after all

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

You do know that virtually half of us voted to remain in the EU, don't you? This behaviour is really rather odd.

 

[T.A]

To reiterate from moderator's delete (too much Gordon Ramsay on my part, but I'm angry, this is such an important point, I will hammer it into your skulls, if I have to):

Everybody's been talking [crap] about the Poles all through this. The [...] Poles??? If the British owe anyone reparations, it's the [...] Poles. The UK went into World War 2 on the defence of Poland, but when push came, they never lifted a finger for her defence. Churchill even gave Poland to Stalin at Yalta in exchange for Stalin giving up on Greece, robbing Poland of democracy for four and a half decades more. The least you English could do with something like the EU project is allowing the Poles to come over and make an honest quid doing your [...] jobs. Instead of [whining] like little children just because you hear Polish spoken in your streets!

But at least now we have seen the true colors of the English; selfish and xenophopic. That's how you were all time, weren't you? You want out? Good riddance. Scotland, you're more than welcome to stay. Northern Ireland, go right ahead and go home to Éire, it was high time anyway.

And do yourselves a big favour and spell your way through this:
http://www.bt.dk/udland/briterne-kan-slet-ikke-klare-sig-uden-os-haardtarbejdende-oesteuropaeere
https://translate.google.com/#en/da

---
This is your country! You really want to be known as the skunk of the world? And for what???

You need to calm down, feel free to vent your views but everyone has their opinion and shouldn't be forced into your way of thinking.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Show me where I've said otherwise. Really bizarre retort from you tbfh. I don't know why you would trot that out given I was responding to silk specifically regarding immigration.

And I think it's pretty clear that complete free movement of people isn't gonna happen. The only indication we've had is that skilled worker from the EU (Doctors etc) will be given a free pass, which is only sensible. I don't think anyone with a sprinkling on intelligence has suggested that all immigration is bad, merely it's got to work for the best interests of this country & it's citizens.
---------
Markets & the pound show growth for the second day in a row. This armageddon is a bit shit...

Not every post is a retort, not every post is an argument. Sometimes it's about taking the discussion further. Talk of people "getting on with it", or "accepting the result" are extremely premature as the exit term of the EU haven't been laid out yet. The UK hasn't even begun the process to leave.

 

[mnb089mnb]

I genuinely regret that Leave went so hard on immigration in their campaigning

If the Leave campaign hadn't mentioned immigration I imagine it would have been trounced. For a significant (huge) amount of people in the UK immigration is a massive issue.

The next Tory leader is going to have to try and negotiate a good trade deal with Europe and somehow give immigrants & immigration a bit of a kick at the same time. He has to appease those who voted to Leave the EU to get rid of immigrants but at the same time ensure that the country still has access to EU markets. It won't be easy.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

You need to calm down, feel free to vent your views but everyone has their opinion and shouldn't be forced into your way of thinking.

I have to say, I feel betrayed by you guys. Or at least 52 percent of you. I see the EU game theory project as the one light in an increasingly mad world. And I thought, that Britain and Britains were the light within EU. The guys with the moral compass from World War II to guide themselves and the rest of us. I think a lot of the rest of Europe thought so too. But no, you turned out to be just as navel-gazing. Who do I go to now? Die Deutscher? Les Français?

 

[silkyman]

If the Leave campaign hadn't mentioned immigration I imagine it would have been trounced. For a significant (huge) amount of people in the UK immigration is a massive issue.

The next Tory leader is going to have to try and negotiate a good trade deal with Europe and somehow give immigrants & immigration a bit of a kick at the same time. He has to appease those who voted to Leave the EU to get rid of immigrants but at the same time ensure that the country still has access to EU markets. It won't be easy.

It won't be possible. Sooner or later, someone is going to have to front up to the racists and say 'look... We're not going to start deporting pakis because you voted leave'.

 

[silkyman]

One of the arguments I hear from Leavers, when you remind them that the entire campaign was based on lies is that 'perhaps people didn't believe the campaign, but made up their own minds'

In which case...

The Leave campaign treated them like idiots. If there were that many cast-iron issues that would secure the vote, why did they lead, and continue to campaign on a load of lies. Did they not trust them to make the 'right' decision without also being fed untruths and misinformation?

The Leave campaign prepared terribly. Any promotional campaign starts out by knowing your target market and knowing your message. You spend time and effort on making sure your message matches what will make your target audience agree with you. Apparently there was no significany % of leavers who bought into it.

The Leave Campaign has terrible analysts. The accusations of dishonesty came early on in the campaign, but right to the end, the £350m, promises on immigration and fears over Turkey were front and centre. If these weren't truly taken to heart by Leave voters, when why did they remain key points? Focus groups and opinion polls should have shown that no one bought into the lies, and the message would have changed.

The Leave Campaign is incompetent in pushing their message. They spent the entire campaign on nothing but lies and jingoism. None of this apparently swayed the electorate. So why didn't they campaign on the issues that really mattered to the voters? Had they won this by 60 - 40, it would be a slam dunk. They could, apparently, win without campaigning on anything that the voters would actually believe. Why didn't they get the unarguable mandate?

And because of their inability to plan, their inability to read trends, their condescension of the electorate and their apparent inability to even sway the opinions of less than 5% of the people, despite having months to campaign and decades of right wing media propaganda behind them, they BARELY won.

And Leavers want these people in charge of negotiating our future?

 

[GodsGift]

 

[Camborne Gills]

I have to say, I feel betrayed by you guys. Or at least 52 percent of you. I see the EU game theory project as the one light in an increasingly mad world. And I thought, that Britain and Britains were the light within EU. The guys with the moral compass from World War II to guide themselves and the rest of us. I think a lot of the rest of Europe thought so too. But no, you turned out to be just as navel-gazing. Who do I go to now? Die Deutscher? Les Français?

I really don't get why you are so angry about this? Why do you/should you give a damn anyway? What difference will it make to you whether Great Britain is in the EU or not, or do you like proffering an opinion just for the hell of it?

 

[JoeJoeJoeJoe]

No more stupid than the remainers going on as if the world was close to ending these last 5 days.

Look at the economic fallout from this and we haven't left yet.

#LongTermGains

 

[CEngelbrecht]

I really don't get why you are so angry about this? Why do you/should you give a damn anyway? What difference will it make to you whether Great Britain is in the EU or not, or do you like proffering an opinion just for the hell of it?

You really don't understand game theory, do you?
And for one, I'm quite paranoid about Putin's Russia. And the EU project was our best angle towards his madness. Which is obviously why he's trying to tear the EU apart. And has succeeded. I guess I just don't appreciate the Machiavellian method to triumph. Or hell, maybe I was a closet subject untill a week ago, and Britain in the EU was the closest I would ever get to be British. Take your pick.

 

[CEngelbrecht]