European Union Referendum

[Alty]

That's a fair point, but us fucking off isn't actually going to help them to sell into Europe. The Japanese officials came to us in exasperation. Presumably the message to them now is.. 'Can't help mate. We've fucked off'.

No benefit to staying in as the second largest economy and actually using our weight within the bloc to try and fix these things? Less likely to happen of course when almost a third of our MEPs are only there with a mandate to tear down the relationship completely.

But we've tried, Silky. We've been trying for decades. IT DOESN'T WORK.

We can allow Africans to sell to us. We can negotiate a free trade deal with Japan. Well before the days of UKIP we came up against petty protectionism, bureaucracy, corruption and a lack of concern for anyone or anything beyond Europe's borders.

Big chance for the country, this. Let's stop fretting and just show a bit of optimism.

 

[silkyman]

Well. Optimism is all we've actually got, isn't it?

 

[silkyman]

Worse trade deals than non-existent trade deals? The EU-US trade deal looks in doubt and the EU is still seemingly no closer to trade deals with India or China, meanwhile the US has done something of a u-turn on Obama's "back of the queue" comments.



We're not negotiating from a stronger position from within the EU because we're not doing any of the negotiating in the first place, unelected commissioners are. The reason these deals take forever to put in place is because the EU is a vast and diverse collection of economies that are very difficult to find one-size-fits-all solutions for. The UK should have a much easier time of it.

And there's nothing "short term" about this vote. This is about choosing what sort of country we want the UK to be. The reaction in the US boggles my mind. The relationship we have with the EU is something Americans wouldn't accept in a million years.

BMW and Mercedes sold almost three quarters of a million cars in the USA last year. There isn't NO trade between the EU and the USA. It might not be the absolute best deal, and TTIP seems dead in the water, but there is plenty of trade.

The reason we are in a stronger position in the EU is simple economies of scale. We're going from being one of the biggest markets in the world to being a lone player.

 

[silkyman]

https://twitter.com/thenickleeson/status/750392429807796224

 

[Abertawe]

We're going from being one of the biggest markets in the world to being a lone player.

Exciting isn't it. Great Britannia, forging it's own way in the big wide world once again.

 

[Alty]

BMW and Mercedes sold almost three quarters of a million cars in the USA last year. There isn't NO trade between the EU and the USA. It might not be the absolute best deal, and TTIP seems dead in the water, but there is plenty of trade.

The reason we are in a stronger position in the EU is simple economies of scale. We're going from being one of the biggest markets in the world to being a lone player.

Look, it's pros and cons. Having a big population and economy is an advantage in thrashing out trade deals, but so is having a clear set of objectives. The EU has the former but the wants and needs of the 28 (soon to be 27) member states means it doesn't have the latter.

The UK is still a big country, by the way. I know there's a bizarre impression many people have that little England [sic] can't possibly do anything on its own but we are in the top 30 most populous countries and top 5 biggest economies in the world. We have the clout to make good deals happen.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

BMW and Mercedes sold almost three quarters of a million cars in the USA last year. There isn't NO trade between the EU and the USA. It might not be the absolute best deal, and TTIP seems dead in the water, but there is plenty of trade.

As far as I can tell no one has suggested otherwise. Anyone can trade with anyone else under basic WTO regulations. The contention though was that inside the EU we'd get a better deal than outside of it, which is far from certain given that the EU doesn't seem capable of ratifying these massive trade deals any time soon.

The reason we are in a stronger position in the EU is simple economies of scale. We're going from being one of the biggest markets in the world to being a lone player.

We're going from the largest economy in the world with a long and complex list of boxes to tick, to the sixth largest economy in the world with relatively few. We might have less to offer but the scope of what we need will be narrower and more specific too. It's not inconceivable that we'll get more beneficial trade deals outside the EU, and sooner as well.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Well. Optimism is all we've actually got, isn't it?

Look, no, it's not.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

BOOM!

That was the sound of the pound sterling breaking the $1.30 barrier.

 

[T.A]

You can always help us Mods/admin by reporting posts that you believe are offensive.

Until there is a set mod for this area it is rare that I look at all the threads and posts in this area so it would be a big help to us if you pm one of us or report the post.

Thanks.

 

[markwwfc1992]

You can always help us Mods/admin by reporting posts that you believe are offensive.

Until there is a set mod for this area it is rare that I look at all the threads and posts in this area so it would be a big help to us if you pm one of us or report the post.

Thanks.

To be fair I reported it on shoutbox, I think yourself or JJH were there at the time.

 

[silkyman]

As far as I can tell no one has suggested otherwise. Anyone can trade with anyone else under basic WTO regulations. The contention though was that inside the EU we'd get a better deal than outside of it, which is far from certain given that the EU doesn't seem capable of ratifying these massive trade deals any time soon.



We're going from the largest economy in the world with a long and complex list of boxes to tick, to the sixth largest economy in the world with relatively few. We might have less to offer but the scope of what we need will be narrower and more specific too. It's not inconceivable that we'll get more beneficial trade deals outside the EU, and sooner as well.

Germany are above us on both population and size of economy and they seem to be doing ok. It's also not inconcevable that we'll agree a trade deal and the EU will get a better one.

Incidentally. Back to the old, and fruitful realm of Brexit lies. Andrea Leadsom was very vocal on her huge financial experience in the debates. She was one of the experts we COULD believe.

Erm.

Yeah.

 

[silkyman]

You still working on those five laws we've had forced on us?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You still working on those five laws we've had forced on us?

The arbitrary justification you think you're in a position to demand? No, I'd forgotten all about it. Why, in your mind, would it be worse for Leave supporters to be ignorant of such things than Remain? I voted based on the principle personally, as I assume most others did.

 

[Aber gas]

Eh ?

 

[johnnytodd]

Stop whinging you bunch of tarts, deal with it your in the minority accept it or move abroad.

 

[smat]

Big chance for the country, this. Let's stop fretting and just show a bit of optimism.

Impossible to feel anything close to optimism after that referendum. It was won on lies and anti-immigrant sentiment. At the height of the campaign, an MP was murdered by a white man shouting "Britain First". I feel shame rather than optimism and I'm far from alone.

You and EG are basically just indulging in intellectual masturbation. While we wait and see if your New Britain emerges, a lot of people's lives are going to be really fucking damaged.

 

[johnnytodd]

Impossible to feel anything close to optimism after that referendum. It was won on lies and anti-immigrant sentiment. At the height of the campaign, an MP was murdered by a white man shouting "Britain First". I feel shame rather than optimism and I'm far from alone.

You and EG are basically just indulging in intellectual masturbation. While we wait and see if your New Britain emerges, a lot of people's lives are going to be really fucking damaged.

people like you are like one of them kids growing up who takes his ball home cos he's getting beat.............."not playing anymore it's my ball"

GET A GRIP

 

[johnnytodd]

Just heard a company based in France who i buy electrical installation products from are moving there production to UK in 2017

Brexit 1
EU 0

 

[smat]

your like one of them kids growing up who takes his ball home cos he's getting beat.............."not playing anymore it's my ball"

GET A GRIP

you're

 

[johnnytodd]

you're

You're.

 

[Pagnell]

You're.

You're

 

[johnnytodd]

Brexit to stop foreign aid........at last !

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...evelopment-role-less-aid-money-less-influence

 

[spireite]

Brexit to stop foreign aid........at last !

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...evelopment-role-less-aid-money-less-influence

I think it will stop native aid as well

 

[Abertawe]

We'd already decided to stop giving money to places like India last year. Pretty mental how it ever got to be that we'd give away 100's of millions to countries with their own space programme in the first place.

 

[Alty]

Impossible to feel anything close to optimism after that referendum. It was won on lies and anti-immigrant sentiment. At the height of the campaign, an MP was murdered by a white man shouting "Britain First". I feel shame rather than optimism and I'm far from alone.

You and EG are basically just indulging in intellectual masturbation. While we wait and see if your New Britain emerges, a lot of people's lives are going to be really fucking damaged.

I think bringing the murder of Jo Cox into this is a bit of a low blow. The bloke had been interested in far-right politics long before Brexit was anywhere near the agenda.

Both sides lied. I'm very open about it having been a horrible campaign. What I can't abide is these holier than thou Remainers claiming their side played clean and stuck to facts. Those absurd leaflets about everyone being worse off by thousands in 2030 and the absolutely deplorable threat about a post-Brexit emergency budget (which surprise surprise never materialised). Have you forgotten all that?

I can't really speak for others, but I resent the accusation that people's lives are going to be severely damaged and I don't give a shit. I clearly think the result will be good for the UK and its people. This isn't some weird hypothetical we're talking about. I do live here too...

 

[smat]

I think bringing the murder of Jo Cox into this is a bit of a low blow. The bloke had been interested in far-right politics long before Brexit was anywhere near the agenda.

This is just massively disingenuous. It's not a low blow at all. Immigration was at the forefront of referendum discussion, it was on the front page of the papers, all over TV/radio, and Farage was proudly photographed in front of that 'BREAKING POINT' poster *earlier that day*. Cox was a pro-immigration MP. You can't actually believe it was some sort of coincidence, can you?

Both sides lied. I'm very open about it having been a horrible campaign. What I can't abide is these holier than thou Remainers claiming their side played clean and stuck to facts. Those absurd leaflets about everyone being worse off by thousands in 2030 and the absolutely deplorable threat about a post-Brexit emergency budget (which surprise surprise never materialised). Have you forgotten all that?

I'm no fan of the Remain campaign. Captain Hindsight speaking, but I don't think we should ever have had a referendum. After living through that, I don't want to see another one in my lifetime. I think the whole idea was an utterly hubristic gamble by a psychopath who has only ever treated government as a game, and may now go down in history as our worst ever Prime Minister. All for an extra 12 months of power. It's mind-boggling.

As for the emergency budget and the scaremongering, time will tell, but from an economic point of view it's not exactly 'so far so good', is it?

I can't really speak for others, but I resent the accusation that people's lives are going to be severely damaged and I don't give a shit. I clearly think the result will be good for the UK and its people. This isn't some weird hypothetical we're talking about. I do live here too...

I never said you don't give a shit (although EG clearly doesn't because experiencing an emotion would automatically qualify him for 'feelz brigade' membership), I don't think you're bad, and I'm not saying you, or the rest of the 52%, all voted to leave because you're racist or stupid or can't think for yourself. I just think you guys have been having discussion like it's some esoteric bit of fun, talking in the abstract about Britain's 'place in the world' when it is perfectly clear that, in cold, lonely reality, there is no coherent plan whatsoever. Not your fault, I know.

So yeah, in summation, I fundamentally disagree with you that there's cause for optimism at the moment. Imo we have absolutely shit the bed.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

Those absurd leaflets about everyone being worse off by thousands in 2030 and the absolutely deplorable threat about a post-Brexit emergency budget (which surprise surprise never materialised). Have you forgotten all that?

Surely they can only be judged once the time has come?

I don't know what leaflet you're referring to (I didn't receive anything from either side) but surely it's an opinion rather than fact? Also, Brexit hasn't happened so of course the emergency budget hasn't happened. Why would we have an emergency budget when we don't even know what the terms of our exit are?

 

[johnnytodd]

This Smat fella is a bit of a clown, you will be saying it was Lee Rigby's fault his head was chopped off soon.

And it was remainers who sent our troops in wasn't it?

 

[Abertawe]

Just needed to pay homage to this fantastic point and didn't want to derail the Chilcot thread.

Blair is a remainer .......says it all really.

This.

The man that was complicit in trapping the aspiring middle class wanted to remain so that the United States of Europe could further enhance it's empire and further trap the aspiring middle class, thus making the dream of having 500 million servants to be used as commodities, measured by productivity, and with the sole objective of further enhancing their power & wealth a reality. The irony is the majority of remainers are the aspiring middle class. It seems decades of endemic brainwashing, entrenched in our education institutions and amplified on the airwaves really achieved it's objective with this demographic of people.

These subservient fools don't realise how close they came to ruining the lives of their further generations. Just have to thank whatever greater power you believe in that there are people who still have true freedom of thought and were successful in preventing this disguised fascism from taking it's first steps to total domination over half a billion human beings.

Now I'm not folly enough to believe the likes of Boris & co based their fight on ending this disguise fascism (most probably wanted to create their own) but the most important aspect of this result is the restoration of people power and how it makes the political elite more accountable. The political elite have responded to this surge of people power with absolute panic and immediately set about sabotaging it with every tool they have, see what's happening to Corbyn for the most transparent example of their fight to maintain their grip of power over society. Fortunately though it seems the embers are too strong to be put out completely and are just ready to ignite again when the conditions make it feasible.