European Union Referendum

[thespus]

I think bringing the murder of Jo Cox into this is a bit of a low blow. The bloke had been interested in far-right politics long before Brexit was anywhere near the agenda.

Both sides lied. I'm very open about it having been a horrible campaign. What I can't abide is these holier than thou Remainers claiming their side played clean and stuck to facts. Those absurd leaflets about everyone being worse off by thousands in 2030 and the absolutely deplorable threat about a post-Brexit emergency budget (which surprise surprise never materialised). Have you forgotten all that?

Based more on logic than content—I won't pretend to be as well versed on this topic as you—I don't see how your (bolded) decisions on what to abide avoid hypocrisy. Where there is a divided spectrum, there are extremists with bigoted agendas.

It isn't binary. You voted Leave, and have expressed dissatisfaction with both campaigns, but I wouldn't associate you with racist/xenophobic nutters. Smat voted Remain, and has expressed dissatisfaction with both campaigns, but I wouldn't associate him with those that pass around hyperbolic leaflets.

It's convenient to dismiss the extremists on your side, and then cover the other side of the spectrum in the ad hominem blanket. Anti-feminists do it all the time: "Don't lump me with that rapist ---> "This is why feminism is stupid" ----> *links to the Tumblr blog of some 14 year old girl*

I clearly think the result will be good for the UK and its people. This isn't some weird hypothetical we're talking about. I do live here too...

Is your preceding statement not hypothetical? Is it not the logical equivalent of hypothesizing Brexit will negatively affect the UK?

The only tangible data observed thus far is a devalued currency and the retirement of a few politicians, neither of which are conclusive proofs of any hypothesized result.

 

[Alty]

This is just massively disingenuous. It's not a low blow at all. Immigration was at the forefront of referendum discussion, it was on the front page of the papers, all over TV/radio, and Farage was proudly photographed in front of that 'BREAKING POINT' poster *earlier that day*. Cox was a pro-immigration MP. You can't actually believe it was some sort of coincidence, can you?

Neither of us know. All we do know is that this guy developed an interest in racist politics yonks ago. We also know that Jo Cox and her husband had done a lot to promote refugee rights. Now, I know both sides of the EU referendum campaign often conflated the issues of FMOP and non-EU asylum claims, but really, I'd say Cox's messages about predominantly non-white, non-EU asylum seekers were more likely to get the killer agitated than her campaigning for Remain. You certain can't make the giant leap to say Jo Cox would still be alive had there not been an EU referendum (which I appreciate you didn't, but you were getting into that sort of territory).

I'm no fan of the Remain campaign. Captain Hindsight speaking, but I don't think we should ever have had a referendum. After living through that, I don't want to see another one in my lifetime. I think the whole idea was an utterly hubristic gamble by a psychopath who has only ever treated government as a game, and may now go down in history as our worst ever Prime Minister. All for an extra 12 months of power. It's mind-boggling.

As for the emergency budget and the scaremongering, time will tell, but from an economic point of view it's not exactly 'so far so good', is it?

Don't disagree with much of this. Although I was pleased to get a chance to vote for Leave, Cameron's motivation was purely to shore up his party's vote share and - from the perspective of someone favouring Remain - he's fucked up monumentally.

Re the economy - we can't judge whether it's been an economic success or failure until we're years down the line. Trying to draw conclusions after 2 weeks is madness. Personally I think there may be short term pain for long term gain. I certainly thought there'd be an initial shock and there wouldn't be much hope of stability until our PM thrashes out a deal with the EU. But with a bit of luck I'll be around for another 50 years, so I can handle one or two of insecurity.

I never said you don't give a shit (although EG clearly doesn't because experiencing an emotion would automatically qualify him for 'feelz brigade' membership), I don't think you're bad, and I'm not saying you, or the rest of the 52%, all voted to leave because you're racist or stupid or can't think for yourself. I just think you guys have been having discussion like it's some esoteric bit of fun, talking in the abstract about Britain's 'place in the world' when it is perfectly clear that, in cold, lonely reality, there is no coherent plan whatsoever. Not your fault, I know.

So yeah, in summation, I fundamentally disagree with you that there's cause for optimism at the moment. Imo we have absolutely shit the bed.

I genuinely think we've been discussing it in those terms precisely because we're short on specific plans right now. We need the new PM in place and a negotiating team to start making progress before we can start assessing how rosy or otherwise the future looks. But I don't think it's unreasonable to remind people that we're an important country with plenty of potential to succeed. Nor to point out that some of the world's most successful nations are not part of the EU.

It's weird. Conservatives (small 'c' - I've confused matters by starting a new sentence and capitalising!) have historically been very reluctant to embrace change and have been a pessimistic bunch. But now it seems that young, liberal people have totally convinced themselves that the country is fucked and we have no future. What happened to the optimism of youth? I respect that for you and others this wasn't your preferred outcome, but really, are people actually that scared about what happens next?

 

[Alty]

Based more on logic than content—I won't pretend to be as well versed on this topic as you—I don't see how your (bolded) decisions on what to abide avoid hypocrisy. Where there is a divided spectrum, there are extremists with bigoted agendas.

It isn't binary. You voted Leave, and have expressed dissatisfaction with both campaigns, but I wouldn't associate you with racist/xenophobic nutters. Smat voted Remain, and has expressed dissatisfaction with both campaigns, but I wouldn't associate him with those that pass around hyperbolic leaflets.

It's convenient to dismiss the extremists on your side, and then cover the other side of the spectrum in the ad hominem blanket. Anti-feminists do it all the time: "Don't lump me with that rapist ---> "This is why feminism is stupid" ----> *links to the Tumblr blog of some 14 year old girl*

Is your preceding statement not hypothetical? Is it not the logical equivalent of hypothesizing Brexit will negatively affect the UK?

The only tangible data observed thus far is a devalued currency and the retirement of a few politicians, neither of which are conclusive proofs of any hypothesized result.

Just to be clear, I fully accept that a portion of the Leave vote was made up of racists. No arguments from me on that. I just think that the particular case of Jo Cox is something very different indeed. We're not talking here about a UKIP-inclined bloke who regards foreigners with suspicion. We're talking about a very disturbed man with a long-standing interest in far right politics.

Regarding the particular type of Remain voter I described - these people are fucking everywhere, unfortunately. It's not an isolated case.

Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly enough earlier. What I was trying to say to Smat is I'm not blind to the real life consequences of Brexit. This isn't just a giggle for me because it allows me to talk bollocks on the internet. If the country tanks I'm as fucked as the next bloke. I'm just baffled by the extent of the pessimism. The pound falling against the dollar the first fortnight after the result is hardly unexpected, surely?

 

[Max]

Stop whinging you bunch of tarts, deal with it your in the minority accept it or move abroad.

The irony, presumably lost on you, being that it will now be harder for me to move abroad ...

 

[DarkSithLord]

Surely they can only be judged once the time has come?

I don't know what leaflet you're referring to (I didn't receive anything from either side) but surely it's an opinion rather than fact? Also, Brexit hasn't happened so of course the emergency budget hasn't happened. Why would we have an emergency budget when we don't even know what the terms of our exit are?

Huh? I used to receive 3 a week in the 6 weeks or so leading up to the vote!

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

Huh? I used to receive 3 a week in the 6 weeks or so leading up to the vote!

Strange isn't it? I'm not sure if it's because I live on a new(ish) estate or that the minions are lazy around here but we received nothing to my knowledge.

 

[johnnytodd]

The irony, presumably lost on you, being that it will now be harder for me to move abroad ...

Well if you think the world ends at the European border maybe you should stay here..........you would only show us up by the sounds of it.

 

[Max]

Well if you think the world ends at the European border maybe you should stay here..........you would only show us up by the sounds of it.

I don't follow that logic, but I certainly have no wish to show you up.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

"I have seen, listened and heard many leaders of other planets and they are very worried because they wonder about the course the EU will follow.

"So we have to reassure both the Europeans and those who observe us... from... afar."

- Jean Claude Juncker

 

[.V.]

http://theconversation.com/hard-evi...low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138

 

[.V.]

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/751737541016055809

 

[Camborne Gills]

No!!!

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

http://theconversation.com/hard-evi...low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138

That article depends heavily on framing to make it's point. You could just as easily claim that people most likely to vote Remain are the people with least direct experience of cultural homogeneity, for example. In fact what you tend to see, and what I think we've talked about on here before, is that the places most hostile to mass immigration or multiculturalism tend to be places that are culturally homogeneous but close to places that aren't. White flight could also be something worth taking into account I suppose, 620,000 White Britons fleeing multicultural London within a decade is not insignificant.

 

[nousername]

EU to tax robots as 'electronic people'...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/06/22/europe-wants-robots-to-count-as-people/

 

[Camborne Gills]

So they are basically taxing their own MEPs ?

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

It's weird. Conservatives (small 'c' - I've confused matters by starting a new sentence and capitalising!) have historically been very reluctant to embrace change and have been a pessimistic bunch. But now it seems that young, liberal people have totally convinced themselves that the country is fucked and we have no future. What happened to the optimism of youth? I respect that for you and others this wasn't your preferred outcome, but really, are people actually that scared about what happens next?

I can only speak for myself, but yes, abso-fucking-lutely I'm scared. What on earth have we to be optimistic about? We have a Conservative party who are, in all likelihood, going to emerge an even more frightening beast from their leadership contest (especially if the appalling Leadsom takes the top job), we have an opposition in complete disarray when they ought to be on the front foot. The traditional third party (who I would hold were generally a force for good) have managed to make themselves a complete irrelevance and have been replaced by a nasty bunch of rabble-rousing Little Englanders. And when it comes to the press our best-selling titles merrily sow the seeds of discord and disharmony.

There hasn't been a genuinely centre-left government in eons and there is no prospect of there being one in the near future. I don't, as I've said before, think that the Blair years were all bad but New Labour accepted the Thatcherite consensus. The two main parties have embraced a neo-liberal policy model as a response to the constraints and opportunities afforded by globalisation. And yet we now seemingly want to become more insular, more inward looking, altogether less global in our outlook. But for what? Globalisation is an inescapable reality so to cut ourselves off and leave us at the mercy of regressive domestic forces looks like utter folly to me.

I've been out of the country recently. It came as a blessed relief and I'm not much looking forward to returning.

 

[silkyman]

No!!!

Weren't you the chap who voted out to get rid of the foreigners?

How's that working out?

 

[silkyman]

Those fucking 'experts' are at it again.

I'm glad we listened to the likes of financial expert Angela Leadsom, Michael Gove and Keith Chegwin.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/09/gloom-gathers-over-the-uk-economy

I'm no expert in car maintenance or heart surgery, but I'll happily volunteer should Gove need his brakes fixing or a bypass or something.

 

[silkyman]

This is just massively disingenuous. It's not a low blow at all. Immigration was at the forefront of referendum discussion, it was on the front page of the papers, all over TV/radio, and Farage was proudly photographed in front of that 'BREAKING POINT' poster *earlier that day*. Cox was a pro-immigration MP. You can't actually believe it was some sort of coincidence, can you?


I'm no fan of the Remain campaign. Captain Hindsight speaking, but I don't think we should ever have had a referendum. After living through that, I don't want to see another one in my lifetime. I think the whole idea was an utterly hubristic gamble by a psychopath who has only ever treated government as a game, and may now go down in history as our worst ever Prime Minister. All for an extra 12 months of power. It's mind-boggling.

As for the emergency budget and the scaremongering, time will tell, but from an economic point of view it's not exactly 'so far so good', is it?


I never said you don't give a shit (although EG clearly doesn't because experiencing an emotion would automatically qualify him for 'feelz brigade' membership), I don't think you're bad, and I'm not saying you, or the rest of the 52%, all voted to leave because you're racist or stupid or can't think for yourself. I just think you guys have been having discussion like it's some esoteric bit of fun, talking in the abstract about Britain's 'place in the world' when it is perfectly clear that, in cold, lonely reality, there is no coherent plan whatsoever. Not your fault, I know.

So yeah, in summation, I fundamentally disagree with you that there's cause for optimism at the moment. Imo we have absolutely shit the bed.

This.

 

[silkyman]

Brexit to stop foreign aid........at last !

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...evelopment-role-less-aid-money-less-influence

Yay. We'll make more brown people suffer.

 

[silkyman]

The arbitrary justification you think you're in a position to demand? No, I'd forgotten all about it. Why, in your mind, would it be worse for Leave supporters to be ignorant of such things than Remain? I voted based on the principle personally, as I assume most others did.

You voted on a principle that you can't actually give any evidence of?

You voted because the EU forces us to have laws. But can't tell me any laws that they forced us to have that are actually bad for the UK.

 

[johnnytodd]

i voted and we won

fantastic !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Should have added to my above post that it's also young people who are going to disproportionately bear the brunt if we experience another economic downturn. Plenty of grounds for optimism!

 

[AFCB_Mark]

That article depends heavily on framing to make it's point. You could just as easily claim that people most likely to vote Remain are the people with least direct experience of cultural homogeneity, for example. In fact what you tend to see, and what I think we've talked about on here before, is that the places most hostile to mass immigration or multiculturalism tend to be places that are culturally homogeneous but close to places that aren't. White flight could also be something worth taking into account I suppose, 620,000 White Britons fleeing multicultural London within a decade is not insignificant.

And many of them move down to Dorset and Hampshire, telling everyone who'll listen about how "Laaandon 'as changed mate".

In the same time frame, Dorset's only Labour constituency in god knows how long disappeared to the Tories several years ago, and the once strong Lib Dem Poole is now also Tory as of 2015. Meanwhile London itself tends to err more and more towards Labour.

Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that, just an interesting pattern to observe as time goes on.

 

[spireite]

And many of them move down to Dorset and Hampshire, telling everyone who'll listen about how "Laaandon 'as changed mate".

In the same time frame, Dorset's only Labour constituency in god knows how long disappeared to the Tories several years ago, and the once Lib Dem stronghold of Poole is now also Tory as of 2015. Meanwhile London itself tends to err more and more towards Labour.

Just an interesting pattern to observe as time goes on.

I'm so glad I'm Northern...

 

[smat]

White flight could also be something worth taking into account I suppose, 620,000 White Britons fleeing multicultural London within a decade is not insignificant.

Oh fuck, I hope they're safe and well! Flipping refugees, them.

 

[Abertawe]

Aww, love you too China man.

Says Xu Jin, a minister at China's embassy in London. "The British should not worry about China not being your friend after Brexit," he tells a conference. So, they won't desert us when we leave the EU? "Never. This is never going to happen. China is always going to be your friend."

 

[sl1k]

The arbitrary justification you think you're in a position to demand? No, I'd forgotten all about it. Why, in your mind, would it be worse for Leave supporters to be ignorant of such things than Remain? I voted based on the principle personally, as I assume most others did.

You voted on a principle that you can't actually give any evidence of?

You voted because the EU forces us to have laws. But can't tell me any laws that they forced us to have that are actually bad for the UK.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You voted on a principle that you can't actually give any evidence of?

You voted because the EU forces us to have laws. But can't tell me any laws that they forced us to have that are actually bad for the UK.

What do you imagine I meant when I used the word 'principle'?

 

[johnnytodd]

You voted on a principle that you can't actually give any evidence of?

You voted because the EU forces us to have laws. But can't tell me any laws that they forced us to have that are actually bad for the UK.

Good point.