Game of Thrones

[Gilly?]

Thought it was a pretty dull series overall.

I just want to know where the fuck Gendry is, he must be tired if he's still rowing that wanky little row boat!

 

[M Dogg]

These crows ain't loyal

 

[thespus]

Stanns vs. Bolton battle was underwhelming. I wish HBO could have done 90 minutes.

Also, is now the appropriate time to have the discussion about how the American season/series vocabulary makes more sense?

 

[Gilly?]

Shut up and take my money!

 

[Mustard]

Spoiler

I found it funny that, given how the poison only took effect on Bronn when he was turned on, as soon as Myrcella hugs her uncle-father who has a penchant for incest she has blood pouring out of her nose. Those Lannisters really are fucked up.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I did wonder whether she was going to go in for the kiss. The seemed unusually enthusiastic about incest.

 

[M Dogg]

Yeah Jaime was deffo gonna give it a go.

 

[Jockney]

Thought the Cersei scene was another example of the show's gratuity and again something that didn't translate well onto the small screen.

Cue: it's just a fucking tv show, what did you expect the wire, bla bla bla

 

[thespus]

Thought the Cersei scene was another example of the show's gratuity and again something that didn't translate well onto the small screen.

Cue: it's just a fucking tv show, what did you expect the wire, bla bla bla

Re: your last quote — I've got you flustered, then, don't I? Yet another example of what I'm saying. No one ever counters the "why watch something if you expect it to disappoint you?" with an actual answer; they just make throw-a-way statements like the above or resort to ad hominem. It reeks of pretension. I'm genuinely curious why people subject themselves to things they only ever complain about?

I'm interested in hearing how the Cersei scene was another example of the show's gratuity? It doesn't make literal sense to me unless there is an alternative definition for gratuity of which I'm unaware (edit - gratuitous?). The nudity? The actress agreed to it herself. I'd expect outrage over that to come from the Bible Belt of America. So some folks are unhappy the show's writers change things from the books and others are mad that they've done a scene which is almost identical to how it happened in the books. There is no, and never will be, a universal entertainment form, hence my bemusement from the first paragraph.

 

[SaddlerJonny]

Thought the Cersei scene was another example of the show's gratuity and again something that didn't translate well onto the small screen.

Cue: it's just a fucking tv show, what did you expect the wire, bla bla bla

What was the problem?

I thought it was the best scene by far, well acted and paced.

 

[thespus]

What was the problem?

I thought it was the best scene by far, well acted and paced.

I agree. I thought the actress did an excellent job and, in terms of characterisation, it helped define Cersei —she walked with her head held high, despite her obvious discomfort, until she was back in the presence of allies. She was not broken by the unusual punishment of the religious zealot. They paced, and timed, this perfectly. A brief fifteen second clip of Cersei walking among people insulting her wouldn't have had the same visual effect. Best scene of the finale, in my opinion. I think the shortcomings of the "siege" on Winterfell were the weakest production points for the finale.

 

[Jockney]

Re: your last quote — I've got you flustered, then, don't I? Yet another example of what I'm saying. No one ever counters the "why watch something if you expect it to disappoint you?" with an actual answer; they just make throw-a-way statements like the above or resort to ad hominem. It reeks of pretension. I'm genuinely curious why people subject themselves to things they only ever complain about?

Where are the ad hominem remarks? I indirectly attacked your line of argument, which was uncritical.

P.s. you aren't allowed to criticise anyone for pretension and then italicise for emphasis or use phrases like 'extrapolation endeavor' in a discussion about ageing Czech goalkeepers.

I'm interested in hearing how the Cersei scene was another example of the show's gratuity? It doesn't make literal sense to me unless there is an alternative definition for gratuity of which I'm unaware.

DON'T FUCKING CONDESCEND TO ME MATE.

The nudity? The actress agreed to it herself. I'd expect outrage over that to come from the Bible Belt of America. So some folks are unhappy the show's writers change things from the books and others are mad that they've done a scene which is almost identical to how it happened in the books. There is no, and never will be, a universal entertainment form, hence my bemusement from the first paragraph.

I'm not sure if I'm offended more because it's part of a micro and macro trend in GOT and much of American drama respectively to linger on the suffering, contempt or humiliation of women in a way that purports to be 'honest'/'representative' but creates an experience that is more akin to rubbernecking (titillation in extreme examples), or that the season didn't do enough with Cersei to earn that moment -- or at least earn five minutes of it. Of course, the sequence was a logical progression of her arc -- we hate cersei, she deserved to be humbled, she was humbled -- but there were better, more intelligently-written alternatives to convey that humiliation to the audience without playing into the hands of the fuckwits who found it hilarious that she got her comeuppance via sexual humilation and gratuitious (there's that word again) gendered taunting.

 

[SaddlerJonny]

Where are the ad hominem remarks? I indirectly attacked your line of argument, which was uncritical.

P.s. you aren't allowed to criticise anyone for pretension and then italicise for emphasis or use phrases like 'extrapolation endeavor' in a discussion about ageing Czech goalkeepers.




DON'T FUCKING CONDESCEND TO ME MATE.




I'm not sure if I'm offended more because it's part of a micro and macro trend in GOT and much of American drama respectively to linger on the suffering, contempt or humiliation of women in a way that purports to be 'honest'/'representative' but creates an experience that is more akin to rubbernecking (titillation in extreme examples), or that the season didn't do enough with Cersei to earn that moment -- or at least earn five minutes of it. Of course, the sequence was a logical progression of her arc -- we hate cersei, she deserved to be humbled, she was humbled -- but there were better, more intelligently-written alternatives to convey that humiliation to the audience without playing into the hands of the fuckwits who found it hilarious that she got her comeuppance via sexual humilation and gratuitious (there's that word again) gendered taunting.

They did it to a man early on in the season too you know, heard nothing about that though, strange.

 

[iesty wfc]

It wasn't Lena headey in the full frontal scenes, sorry to disappoint. You could clearly tell the CGI splice at certain points

Plus from 300, her norks weren't that big

 

[Jockney]

They did it to a man early on in the season too you know, heard nothing about that though, strange.

Because they're not even remotely the same thing.

Anyway my gripe wasn't with the concept it was with the execution.

 

[SaddlerJonny]

Because they're not even remotely the same thing.

Anyway my gripe wasn't with the concept it was with the execution.

It's the exact same scene as was in the books, it fits the universe and the story.

If you're offended by things like that then I'm sorry this isn't the show for you.

 

[Jockney]

It's the exact same scene as was in the books, it fits the universe and the story.

It wasn't and that isn't the point.

If you're offended by things like that then I'm sorry this isn't the show for you.

And yet I've made it to this far with only occasional problems. It's as if the show wasn't always like this or something...

 

[SaddlerJonny]

It wasn't and that isn't the point.
And yet I've made it to this far with only occassional problems. It's as if the show wasn't always like this or something...

It was exactly like the books, in fact it was worse in the books. Yes it is the point, you said they could of done it better, when they were simply staying true to the books in one of the books best scenes.

They are damned if they change the books, damned if they don't change the books. It was a great scene where you can see Cersei's feelings and thought patterns throughout the entire scene without her speaking a word.

 

[thespus]

Where are the ad hominem remarks? I indirectly attacked your line of argument, which was uncritical.

P.s. you aren't allowed to criticise anyone for pretension and then italicise for emphasis or use phrases like 'extrapolation endeavor' in a discussion about ageing Czech goalkeepers.




DON'T FUCKING CONDESCEND TO ME MATE.




I'm not sure if I'm offended more because it's part of a micro and macro trend in GOT and much of American drama respectively to linger on the suffering, contempt or humiliation of women in a way that purports to be 'honest'/'representative' but creates an experience that is more akin to rubbernecking (titillation in extreme examples), or that the season didn't do enough with Cersei to earn that moment -- or at least earn five minutes of it. Of course, the sequence was a logical progression of her arc -- we hate cersei, she deserved to be humbled, she was humbled -- but there were better, more intelligently-written alternatives to convey that humiliation to the audience without playing into the hands of the fuckwits who found it hilarious that she got her comeuppance via sexual humilation and gratuitious (there's that word again) gendered taunting.

Jockney: at this point, you seem to be arguing more against me (two words I used in a joke post are more indicative of pretension than "PS: You aren't allowed to.."?) than my simple question as to why you keep subjecting yourself to a show for which you have such contempt. Here are my final offerings:

1) I didn't accuse you specifically of ad hominem. I named it as a trait that others whom I've had similar discussion with resort to. I did say you made a passive aggressive throw-a-way remark instead of bothering to explain why you were offended by my question. I am genuinely confounded by your dislike of me for asking why you watch a show that makes you angry.
2) I wasn't condescending. English is my second language and, to my knowledge (and dictionary.com), gratuity means a tip. I was literally confused by your wording; there was no other intention. Gratuity =/= Gratuitous in my vocabulary. If gratuity is interchangeable with gratuitous, I apologise.
3) I'm still confused why you believe nudity which the actor agreed to is such an immoral display and offense against women. Lena Heady might know more about gender inequality than two men on a football forum discussing an HBO show. The show didn't earn that moment? That might be the least criticised scene of the finale. Cersei has been portrayed to be such a villain throughout, and was largely disliked, but that scene left an excellent moral question: was the punishment just? Did her actions, certainly wrong, deserve such punishment?
4) "...but there were better, more intelligently-written alternatives to convey that humiliation to the audience without playing into the hands of the fuckwits who found it hilarious that she got her comeuppance via sexual humilation and gratuitious (there's that word again) gendered taunting." Where has anyone said they found this hilarious? Anyone who did is a daft twat. Daft, racist twats laughed at scenes during Django Unchained, too. Does that mean Quentin Tarantino is furthering racism by including scenes of the racist culture in that time period?
5) Gender taunting? It's a literal scene from the book with a consenting actress walking naked in an important scene for her character in a fictional world. Do you oppose pornography?

 

[Jockney]

It was exactly like the books, in fact it was worse in the books. Yes it is the point, you said they could of done it better, when they were simply staying true to the books in one of the books best scenes.

The scene is littered with literary devices which are abstract, so they aren't comparable. This is why adaptation requires intense scrutiny and careful and considered rewriting if neccessary because you lose that most of that meaning when you remove the narration.

the books, damned if they don't change the books. It was a great scene where you can see Cersei's feelings and thought patterns throughout the entire scene without her speaking a word.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. You're asking the wrong question. The source material isn't sacrosanct and anyone who says it is a div.

 

[SaddlerJonny]

The scene is littered with literary devices which are abstract, so they aren't comparable. This is why adaptation requires intense scrutiny and careful and considered rewriting if neccessary because you lose that most of that meaning when you remove the narration.

Can you give examples of what literacy devices from the books were missing from the show's adaptation?

The source material isn't sacrosanct and anyone who says it is a div.

I agree completely.

 

[T.A]

I feel like my IQ has increased by ten points after reading this last page. So many new words. Thank you guys.

 

[ZianfrancoGoal]

all while mr thesarus is on holibobs

 

[Jockney]

Jockney: at this point, you seem to be arguing more against me (two words I used in a joke post are more indicative of pretension than "PS: You aren't allowed to.."?) than my simple question as to why you keep subjecting yourself to a show for which you have such contempt. Here are my final offerings:

well, I have tried to explain several times. I know it's not an opinion that you agree with, but it's exasperating when you don't engage with what i've said and accuse me of being a hater (in so many words, though usually more). your tone annoys me more but honestly trading barbs is fun and i only pick on you because you don't seem to have a sense of humour about it (which makes it even more fun).

1) I didn't accuse you specifically of ad hominem. I named it as a trait that others whom I've had similar discussion with resort to. I did say you made a passive aggressive throw-a-way remark instead of bothering to explain why you were offended by my question. I am genuinely confounded by your dislike of me for asking why you watch a show that makes you angry.

covered in the reply above, and it doesn't make me angry, it disappoints me.

2) I wasn't condescending. English is my second language and, to my knowledge (and dictionary.com), gratuity means a tip. I was literally confused by your wording; there was no other intention. Gratuity =/= Gratuitous in my vocabulary. If gratuity is interchangeable with gratuitous, I apologise.

well that's on me. context-specific versions of nouns are confusing, especially when the root verb is the same.

3) I'm still confused why you believe nudity which the actor agreed to is such an immoral display and offense against women. Lena Heady might know more about gender inequality than two men on a football forum discussing an HBO show. The show didn't earn that moment? That might be the least criticised scene of the finale. Cersei has been portrayed to be such a villain throughout, and was largely disliked, but that scene left an excellent moral question: was the punishment just? Did her actions, certainly wrong, deserve such punishment?

1) i don't have a problem with nudity but then context is everything

2) lena heady might, then lena heady is a highly-paid actor who might not have any strong ideas either way, she isn't seeing this season as a complete whole, plenty of actual women share my opinion so paradox i guess.

3) tv shows are serialised so characters need to have their own arcs on a season by season basis as well as an overarching arc as the series progresses. she spent the majority of the season screaming in a cell, powerless. she spent most of ADOD in complete control with absolute power; later her helplessness was conveyed in through chapters narrated in the first person. that internal monologue obvs can't be translated onto the screen, so they needed to either scrap the storyline (not good idea) or tell it in a way that focused on her gradually losing her grip on the iron throne, shown via her interactions with people she could thought she could rely on for support, with the sparrow indictment being the coup de grace, rather than the crux of her woes.

4. she deserved punishment but not gendered punishment. again, the nude march scene could have worked if not for the excessive gendered bullshit (the bloke with his willy, 'bitch, bitch, whore!' etc), the scene dragging on for far too long and a better narrative leading up to it.

4) "...but there were better, more intelligently-written alternatives to convey that humiliation to the audience without playing into the hands of the fuckwits who found it hilarious that she got her comeuppance via sexual humilation and gratuitious (there's that word again) gendered taunting." Where has anyone said they found this hilarious? Anyone who did is a daft twat. Daft, racist twats laughed at scenes during Django Unchained, too. Does that mean Quentin Tarantino is furthering racism by including scenes of the racist culture in that time period?

i can't really speak to django too much as it's a while since i saw it, but tarantino didn't punctuate every few scenes (or episodes as we're talking about a longer form medium) with sequences of gross violence against black people and from the few of those scenes that were in the film, the camera didn't linger on them or turn them into perverse entertainment.

my final point on that scene is this: cersei deserved a satisfying comeuppance, but fitting and just comeuppance. not the sort of shit that seemed to invite the audience to hate on her for having the gall to be an evil woman as opposed to an evil person.

5) Gender taunting? It's a literal scene from the book with a consenting actress walking naked in an important scene for her character in a fictional world. Do you oppose pornography?

do i oppose pornography? not in any judeo-christian sense, no, and certainly not in a legal sense. but then i'm not advocating that GOT be censored either. do you think i'm criticising GOT for nudity?????

having just read over the chapter again, the gendered taunting is just as over-the-top and unneccesary in the book and actually far worse than i remember it (they weren't books i read slowly or particularly carefully) but then it is told from cersei's perspective and is far less concerned with the actual spectacle than it is with cersei's state of mind -- the actual shaming seems almost incidental.

 

[Jockney]

Can you give examples of what literacy devices from the books were missing from the show's adaptation?

well, what things could you not convey in the series that you could in the book? point of view, syntactical devices such as parenthesis and anaphora, and of course the deliberate pacing and extra detail that written prose affords writers.

 

[BCFC Jordan]

Give Ramsay and twenty good men control and they might be able to fix the mess that was S5.

 

[SaddlerJonny]

well, what things could you not convey in the series that you could in the book? point of view, syntactical devices such as parenthesis and anaphora, and of course the deliberate pacing and extra detail that written prose affords writers.

So how would of those helped the scene translate better to the small screen? Because you're the only person that I've come across that had a problem with this scene. I'm curious how you would of done it differently if you were in D&D and David Nutters shoes.

 

[Sideshow Bob]

Well, on another note.... congrats to Balon Greyjoy on winning the war of 5 kings

 

[thespus]

Jockney - Fair play. I didn't perceive any humour (my German blood hasn't dissipated after all) and was confused by you calling me condescending. I'm still shocked at a person willingly watching a show they have such contempt for, but at least you've addressed my curiosity now, and it's not my place to tell you how to spend your time. I very much think perpetuating GOT as some anti-women charade is OTT, but I don't think I'll be changing your opinion any time soon, either. To keep forum debate going, a thought:

What non-gender specific actions wouldn't have felt contrived to meet the opposition to a few men dangling their willies and using the terms bitch and whore? I'd have called bullshit if the men in the crowd were well behaved and simply yelled "you unethical human being!" to a woman noted for beauty and despised for her cruelty. The show creators weren't asking the audience to cheer, or even agree with, the male hecklers in the crowd. If anything, the scene drew sympathy for Cersei and raised the pertinent question of just punishment. Adding in demoralizing interactions helped create this unconscious appreciation for the willpower of her character. I think its inclusion of strong female characters compared to several other fantasy (or related historical fiction) stories is a selling point for GOT. Cersei herself is quite the strong woman, as demonstrated in the scene in question (albeit a shitty person).They also have a great female lead in Dany; an idyllic human being dealing with the associated dilemmas of being an idyllic ruler in a savage culture.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Considering the nature of her crimes were primarily sexual, doesn't it make sense that the insults were ones like "whore"?