Jack Ross New Sunderland Manager

[St. Juste]

Hardly any English people care about Scottish football. We get constant updates on Ross County against East Fife and the like from most of the English based media who probably make the vast majority of money from English people, yet the coverage of the lower leagues in this country is pathetic.

You’ve made the point yourself that apart from a couple of teams at the top of the Scottish Premier the standard is not demonstrably better and the crowds aren’t bigger, so you can see why people get pissed off.

Scottish football gets drastically less coverage than it deserves, it is treated utterly abymsal by the British media.

Far less successful and watched leagues around Europe (e.g. Norway) have a domestic champion broadcaster pumping money into them. Scotland, with a world leading proportional attendance, gets a pittance.

As for these constant updates, erm, when? Scottish football used to have a small 5 min segment in Football Focus - it certainly doesn't any more and will barely feature once every month.

It has a completely separate results and highlights show on BBC.

So when and where are these updates about Ross County against East Fife (a game last played 11 years ago) happening? On Sky Sports results maybe? But not on the BBC.

Indeed, Scottish football has recently been getting less British media coverage than either English womens football, or completely awful sports like Cricket.

As for complaining about the relative lack of coverage - the EPL dominates this in all of the UK. If anyone should be getting less coverage (in favour of, say, womens football) it's them rather than those who already get a pittance like Scottish football and the English lower leagues.

 

[bantamigo]

Scottish football gets its own BBC text service on the national website on a Saturday, often Rangers and Celtic aren’t even playing so it’s a load of teams who are barely relevant. Meanwhile if it’s Portsmouth v Bradford with about 18000 at the game and two teams going for promotion I have a ‘live score’ to look at and then about 10 seconds of highlights on YouTube on the Monday morning after the Saturday.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

Other than the "bigger teams" relegated from the SPL a fair few lower league players in Scotland are part time and work other jobs. Dreadful standard of football, very surprised they're given it to him. Don't get me wrong he'll get them promoted from this league, I'd expect to. But the challenge will come in the championship, he could be sacked by Christmas next year, luckily he can bring a deck chair, light a cigar and watch them walk the league this season.

 

[St. Juste]

Scottish football gets its own BBC text service on the national website on a Saturday, often Rangers and Celtic aren’t even playing so it’s a load of teams who are barely relevant. Meanwhile if it’s Portsmouth v Bradford with about 18000 at the game and two teams going for promotion I have a ‘live score’ to look at and then about 10 seconds of highlights on YouTube on the Monday morning after the Saturday.

It gets its own text service, but said text service tends to only cover the top league (or maybe bigger teams in the second division).

As for not relevant, fixtures that don't involve Rangers or Celtic will be able to attract similar crowds.

I really don't know what your issue is, football is national obsession in Scotland. It's far bigger here than it is in England - and the proportional attendances prove that. I've lived in West Central Scotland and a supposed other hub of football - Rio - and the former was far more obsessed. And you're complaining that we have a live text on the BBC website and a highlights show? This will be less than other poorer quality leagues from similar sized nations.

Your ire at lack of coverage should be directed at the Premiership, not Scottish football - which has been around for 150 years, is by far the biggest sport in the country, and gets less national press than English womens foootball.

Other than the "bigger teams" relegated from the SPL a fair few lower league players in Scotland are part time and work other jobs. Dreadful standard of football, very surprised they're given it to him. Don't get me wrong he'll get them promoted from this league, I'd expect to. But the challenge will come in the championship, he could be sacked by Christmas next year, luckily he can bring a deck chair, light a cigar and watch them walk the league this season.

The SPL hasn't existed for years.

Some of the teams in the lower league are part time - obviously. How many professional football teams would you expect a nation of 5 million people to accommodate? 20? 160?

As for "dreadful standard of football" - relative to what, exactly? Compared to our peers, other nations of 5 million people we do far better. In the past 15 years we have had two teams reach European finals. Belgium, a far larger nation with a much better national team, can't get close to that. Their champions finished below our champions in the CL this year.

The ignorance regarding Scottish football is absolutely staggering, and there is no reason or it. Can fans of English teams only make themselves feel good by artificially putting something else down that they know nothing about?

Bradford is a larger city than Edinburgh, yet the latter has two better football teams with larger attendances. And Edinburgh is no where near a hotbed of football, it's probably one of the areas where football is weakest in the whole country. Compared to Glasgow it is night and day.

Still, at least Bradford is a much nicer place to live than Edinburgh...

 

[bantamigo]

It gets its own text service, but said text service tends to only cover the top league (or maybe bigger teams in the second division).

As for not relevant, fixtures that don't involve Rangers or Celtic will be able to attract similar crowds.

I really don't know what your issue is, football is national obsession in Scotland. It's far bigger here than it is in England - and the proportional attendances prove that. I've lived in West Central Scotland and a supposed other hub of football - Rio - and the former was far more obsessed. And you're complaining that we have a live text on the BBC website and a highlights show? This will be less than other poorer quality leagues from similar sized nations.

Your ire at lack of coverage should be directed at the Premiership, not Scottish football - which has been around for 150 years, is by far the biggest sport in the country, and gets less national press than English womens foootball.



The SPL hasn't existed for years.

Some of the teams in the lower league are part time - obviously. How many professional football teams would you expect a nation of 5 million people to accommodate? 20? 160?

As for "dreadful standard of football" - relative to what, exactly? Compared to our peers, other nations of 5 million people we do far better. In the past 15 years we have had two teams reach European finals. Belgium, a far larger nation with a much better national team, can't get close to that. Their champions finished below our champions in the CL this year.

The ignorance regarding Scottish football is absolutely staggering, and there is no reason or it. Can fans of English teams only make themselves feel good by artificially putting something else down that they know nothing about?

Bradford is a larger city than Edinburgh, yet the latter has two better football teams with larger attendances. And Edinburgh is no where near a hotbed of football, it's probably one of the areas where football is weakest in the whole country. Compared to Glasgow it is night and day.

Still, at least Bradford is a much nicer place to live than Edinburgh...

Prove that Hibs and Hearts would beat City. I would have said we would have pissed all over them last season, debateable this season as we’ve been gash. Could you see Hibs or Hearts getting anywhere near a cup final in England or beating a Champions League team away from home. They can’t even get close to Celtic. Your points are pure conjecture but you’re having a go at English fans for doing the same? Bizarre way to try win people over.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

It gets its own text service, but said text service tends to only cover the top league (or maybe bigger teams in the second division).

As for not relevant, fixtures that don't involve Rangers or Celtic will be able to attract similar crowds.

I really don't know what your issue is, football is national obsession in Scotland. It's far bigger here than it is in England - and the proportional attendances prove that. I've lived in West Central Scotland and a supposed other hub of football - Rio - and the former was far more obsessed. And you're complaining that we have a live text on the BBC website and a highlights show? This will be less than other poorer quality leagues from similar sized nations.

Your ire at lack of coverage should be directed at the Premiership, not Scottish football - which has been around for 150 years, is by far the biggest sport in the country, and gets less national press than English womens foootball.



The SPL hasn't existed for years.

Some of the teams in the lower league are part time - obviously. How many professional football teams would you expect a nation of 5 million people to accommodate? 20? 160?

As for "dreadful standard of football" - relative to what, exactly? Compared to our peers, other nations of 5 million people we do far better. In the past 15 years we have had two teams reach European finals. Belgium, a far larger nation with a much better national team, can't get close to that. Their champions finished below our champions in the CL this year.

The ignorance regarding Scottish football is absolutely staggering, and there is no reason or it. Can fans of English teams only make themselves feel good by artificially putting something else down that they know nothing about?

Bradford is a larger city than Edinburgh, yet the latter has two better football teams with larger attendances. And Edinburgh is no where near a hotbed of football, it's probably one of the areas where football is weakest in the whole country. Compared to Glasgow it is night and day.

Still, at least Bradford is a much nicer place to live than Edinburgh...

It's a dreadful standard of football relative to England, that's what. I'd fancy us against either of the teams you mentioned, they both average less than us btw, we average nearly 20,000 and would easily sell out if we were in the top tier of our country. If Hibs or Hearts were in the 3rd and 4th tiers in Scotland for the past 15 years which we have in England, they'd average about 3,000 if they were lucky.

P.s I've been to Edinburgh, very nice place, but thankfully I live in Wilsden nicely out of Bradford and I can get to Leeds and Manchester easy enough. I'd rather live where I do. Glasgow on the other hand is a dive.

 

[SF_]

Proportions don't really mean a lot when you're talking about two countries with such a gulf in population.

The combined populations of Lancashire, Greater Manchester and Merseyside are about the same as Scotland and the combined attendances in the North West greatly outweigh those of Scotland... and that's with loads of rugby towns in the area.

Football in Scotland is 'far bigger' than in some parts of England, whereas it isn't compared to places like the North West and Yorkshire.

Not that it has anything to do with the overall debate but I just thought the Bradford/ Edinburgh comparisons were a bit pointless.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

Not that it has anything to do with the overall debate but I just thought the Bradford/ Edinburgh comparisons were a bit pointless.

It is, especially when the only point I was making is that the Scottish lower leagues are a terrible standard, we had enough players from there a few year ago to see first hand. I'm sure he'll still get Sunderland out of the khazi league straight away though.

 

[SF_]

We've had plenty of duds from Scotland but I can't say I watch enough of it to make a real assessment. Outside of Celtic i'd guess the SPL is similar to League One at the moment.

Joey Barton was pretty scathing about the standard up there when he played for Rangers but he's an utter gobshite so I won't use that as a marker.

 

[St. Juste]

Prove that Hibs and Hearts would beat City. I would have said we would have pissed all over them last season, debateable this season as we’ve been gash. Could you see Hibs or Hearts getting anywhere near a cup final in England or beating a Champions League team away from home. They can’t even get close to Celtic. Your points are pure conjecture but you’re having a go at English fans for doing the same? Bizarre way to try win people over.

What proof would you want? Hearts and Hibs have a few players in and around the Scotland team whereas there was a lot of fans unhappy with Mulgrew, captain of a side who was promoted and who made team of the year, making the squad. Players from League 1 making it into the national side is the exception.

As for cup final in England? Anyone could go on a cup run - look at the team who faced PSG in the French cup final. Both Hearts and Hibs beat Champions League team Celtic this season.

I'm not trying to win people over, there is a lot of ignorance about Scottish football from English fans. It's important to correct it, and also understand it. I don't go around complaining about how terrible Welsh football is, and how is worse than the Moldovan league. It's just strange behaviour, I don't understand it.

It's a dreadful standard of football relative to England, that's what. I'd fancy us against either of the teams you mentioned, they both average less than us btw, we average nearly 20,000 and would easily sell out if we were in the top tier of our country. If Hibs or Hearts were in the 3rd and 4th tiers in Scotland for the past 15 years which we have in England, they'd average about 3,000 if they were lucky.

P.s I've been to Edinburgh, very nice place, but thankfully I live in Wilsden nicely out of Bradford and I can get to Leeds and Manchester easy enough. I'd rather live where I do. Glasgow on the other hand is a dive.

Well, that's the crux of the matter. Our football is dreadful relative to a nation more than ten times our size. Guatemala could spend 100% of their GDP on their armed forces, and be rubbish compared to the US armed forces. It means nothing.

All nations outside the top 5 leagues in the world are awful compared to English football - Dutch football is, Portuguese football is. It means nothing.

Also, the figures posted above contradict the results from google. Your point about third tier versus first tier is not relevant (I don't see how it could be?!?) Both Hearts and Hibs have been in the second tier recently.

But anyway, this is two teams versus one - in a part of the country that doesn't really care about football (relative to the rest). And all in a smaller city!

Proportions don't really mean a lot when you're talking about two countries with such a gulf in population.

The combined populations of Lancashire, Greater Manchester and Merseyside are about the same as Scotland and the combined attendances in the North West greatly outweigh those of Scotland... and that's with loads of rugby towns in the area.

Football in Scotland is 'far bigger' than in some parts of England, whereas it isn't compared to places like the North West and Yorkshire.

Not that it has anything to do with the overall debate but I just thought the Bradford/ Edinburgh comparisons were a bit pointless.

Do they? How do they compare to the Glasgow or West Central Scotland area?

You could make a point about gulf if the figures were close but I don't think they were - think Scotland was far ahead of England and most other nations around the world.

What's your issue with comparing two like size cities?

It is, especially when the only point I was making is that the Scottish lower leagues are a terrible standard, we had enough players from there a few year ago to see first hand. I'm sure he'll still get Sunderland out of the khazi league straight away though.

Again, terrible standard relative to what? Some of our players will go down there and succeed, some of their players will come up here and fail.

What players have you had from the Scottish Lower Leagues who have been failures?

We've had plenty of duds from Scotland but I can't say I watch enough of it to make a real assessment. Outside of Celtic i'd guess the SPL is similar to League One at the moment.

Joey Barton was pretty scathing about the standard up there when he played for Rangers but he's an utter gobshite so I won't use that as a marker.

I thought St. Mirren would be around a League 2 side (with a higher average attendance than some League 1 teams). The rest of the SPFL would be around League 1, with Hearts, Rangers, Hibs and Aberdeen certainly potential to be Championship teams.

As for Joey Barton, he came up here boasting he would be the best player in the league and....he was utterly terrible and hounded out after a few games.

Team of the Year in the Championship to a rampant failure in the SPFL - I wonder why on earth he of all people can criticise the standard! It was so bad, I failed completely.

 

[SoutheySWFC]

Well anyone else bored?

 

[SF_]

Do they? How do they compare to the Glasgow or West Central Scotland area?

Well there is Man United, Man City, Liverpool & Everton, Blackburn, Preston, Burnley, Bolton, Wigan, Blackpool, Accrington, Morecambe, Fleetwood, AFC Fylde, Salford, Chorley, Stockport, Macclesfield, Bury, Oldham, Rochdale, Southport.

Can't be assed working out right now but that's a lot of fans within an overall population of 5 million+.

I think the highest attendance in the Scottish Championship was 5,500? and no one in the Scottish L1 or 2 averaged over a 1,000?

 

[Pompeyblue]

Ipswich must be the most depressing club to lose your manager to.

Ipswich are a great club. Until recently they used to travel in big numbers.

 

[bantamigo]

Ipswich are a great club. Until recently they used to travel in big numbers.

Plenty of clubs around who travel in decent numbers, but I would still be a bit ‘meh ‘if we had one of our best managers for years poached off us by them like Shrewsbury have. Look at Parkinson leaving us for Bolton, although would imagine other factors were involved there.

Maybe Hurst going there will be the catalyst for them to pull themselves out of the rut.

 

[Tom_ITFC]

Plenty of clubs around who travel in decent numbers, but I would still be a bit ‘meh ‘if we had one of our best managers for years poached off us by them like Shrewsbury have. Maybe it will be the catalyst for them to pull themselves out of the rut.

Considering the distances, we have very good following. We take almost double than clubs bring to us 80-90% of the time

 

[Boletus Edulis]

Given that Bradford will never play Hib or Hearts you can not prove who is better. But we at Argyle have a bit of insight at the individual player level. We have had in recent years two successful Scottish managers, and whilst Luggy’s ability to find wee nuggets from north of the border is a while back, Adams often mines Scottish teams ( we are apparently interested in at least one at present). We have had quite a lot of players from Scottish premier teams when in both league 2 and league 1, and most but not all have done well. Carey, who I suspect, many of you would be happy to have, was Ross County’s left back. We also have the fact that several of our league 2 players have done well at Motherwell last year and this.

All of this suggests that many of the players outside the top three or four Scottish teams are probably mostly at the league 2/1 level, but there will be exceptions above that. At heart it is down to how well the EFL managers use the players they get from north of the border.

 

[3Loggerheads]

I think Paul Hurst and Doig will do a decent job for Ipswich, but it will only be until Sheffield Wednesday come calling..... Hursty deserves his chance in the Championship.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

What proof would you want? Hearts and Hibs have a few players in and around the Scotland team whereas there was a lot of fans unhappy with Mulgrew, captain of a side who was promoted and who made team of the year, making the squad. Players from League 1 making it into the national side is the exception.

As for cup final in England? Anyone could go on a cup run - look at the team who faced PSG in the French cup final. Both Hearts and Hibs beat Champions League team Celtic this season.

I'm not trying to win people over, there is a lot of ignorance about Scottish football from English fans. It's important to correct it, and also understand it. I don't go around complaining about how terrible Welsh football is, and how is worse than the Moldovan league. It's just strange behaviour, I don't understand it.



Well, that's the crux of the matter. Our football is dreadful relative to a nation more than ten times our size. Guatemala could spend 100% of their GDP on their armed forces, and be rubbish compared to the US armed forces. It means nothing.

All nations outside the top 5 leagues in the world are awful compared to English football - Dutch football is, Portuguese football is. It means nothing.

Also, the figures posted above contradict the results from google. Your point about third tier versus first tier is not relevant (I don't see how it could be?!?) Both Hearts and Hibs have been in the second tier recently.

But anyway, this is two teams versus one - in a part of the country that doesn't really care about football (relative to the rest). And all in a smaller city!



Do they? How do they compare to the Glasgow or West Central Scotland area?

You could make a point about gulf if the figures were close but I don't think they were - think Scotland was far ahead of England and most other nations around the world.

What's your issue with comparing two like size cities?




Again, terrible standard relative to what? Some of our players will go down there and succeed, some of their players will come up here and fail.

What players have you had from the Scottish Lower Leagues who have been failures?



I thought St. Mirren would be around a League 2 side (with a higher average attendance than some League 1 teams). The rest of the SPFL would be around League 1, with Hearts, Rangers, Hibs and Aberdeen certainly potential to be Championship teams.

As for Joey Barton, he came up here boasting he would be the best player in the league and....he was utterly terrible and hounded out after a few games.

Team of the Year in the Championship to a rampant failure in the SPFL - I wonder why on earth he of all people can criticise the standard! It was so bad, I failed completely.

Couldn't be bothered to read your whole post, but I'm guessing you are smart enough to be agreeing that Scottish football is crap, hold your heads up though you only lost by 2 to the mighty Peru.

 

[SoutheySWFC]

Given that Bradford will never play Hib or Hearts you can not prove who is better. But we at Argyle have a bit of insight at the individual player level. We have had in recent years two successful Scottish managers, and whilst Luggy’s ability to find wee nuggets from north of the border is a while back, Adams often mines Scottish teams ( we are apparently interested in at least one at present). We have had quite a lot of players from Scottish premier teams when in both league 2 and league 1, and most but not all have done well. Carey, who I suspect, many of you would be happy to have, was Ross County’s left back. We also have the fact that several of our league 2 players have done well at Motherwell last year and this.

All of this suggests that many of the players outside the top three or four Scottish teams are probably mostly at the league 2/1 level, but there will be exceptions above that. At heart it is down to how well the EFL managers use the players they get from north of the border.

But Carey didn't come down to you 'raw' he had previous experience in England with Huddersfield at League One level

 

[St. Juste]

Well there is Man United, Man City, Liverpool & Everton, Blackburn, Preston, Burnley, Bolton, Wigan, Blackpool, Accrington, Morecambe, Fleetwood, AFC Fylde, Salford, Chorley, Stockport, Macclesfield, Bury, Oldham, Rochdale, Southport

Can't be assed working out right now but that's a lot of fans within an overall population of 5 million+.

I think the highest attendance in the Scottish Championship was 5,500? and no one in the Scottish L1 or 2 averaged over a 1,000?

What's the overall population of that region, though? You can't really make a comparison otherwise.

Certainly, as metropolitan areas Liverpool and Manchester won't compare to Glasgow.

On the whole Scotland as a nation is far more interested in football than England (and, indeed, pretty much everywhere else in the world). England and Scotland have been playing football for 150 years and it's something that has always been the case, for a variety of factors.

Cricket and rugby have not penetrated Scotland to anywhere near the same extent as they have in England. It's very much a one game nation. It's not a criticism of English football by any means, which has great support relative to similar sized nations.

And Scottish L1 and below is part time and would be comparable with part time football in England. Some clubs with astonishing histories though - say Queens Park. They have actually managed more English FA Cup finals than Bradford.

Given that Bradford will never play Hib or Hearts you can not prove who is better. But we at Argyle have a bit of insight at the individual player level. We have had in recent years two successful Scottish managers, and whilst Luggy’s ability to find wee nuggets from north of the border is a while back, Adams often mines Scottish teams ( we are apparently interested in at least one at present). We have had quite a lot of players from Scottish premier teams when in both league 2 and league 1, and most but not all have done well. Carey, who I suspect, many of you would be happy to have, was Ross County’s left back. We also have the fact that several of our league 2 players have done well at Motherwell last year and this.

All of this suggests that many of the players outside the top three or four Scottish teams are probably mostly at the league 2/1 level, but there will be exceptions above that. At heart it is down to how well the EFL managers use the players they get from north of the border.

Except Graham Carey was unsuccessful at St Mirren (in his second spell) and released. As was Gregg Wylde. Indeed, Aaron Mooey who is currently doing well in the Premiership was released by St. Mirren. Mahrez had a trial here and wasn't offered a contract.

Individual player level is a very flawed indicator, there are many reasons why some players can be successful at some levels and others not. You might think the fact that Cummings does well in the SPFL but not the Championship is damning indictment of the former, however, how would you explain Daryl Murphy where the opposite applies? Or Joey Barton who was a miserable failure in the SPFL and Championship team of the year? And so on, and so on.

But broadly, we agree, St. Mirren are a roughly equivalent league two club and most SPFL teams are league one, with some Championship, and then Celtic.

However, the first post I responded to was incredulity that Ross was appointed given his only experience was at Scottish Championship Level (equivalent to NI level apparently). It's good we got away from this nonsense, Ross' experience so far is roughly equivalent to taking a league 2 team with a middling budget on a miraculous escape, then winning the league at a canter the next season. If a manager had done that, a relegated Championship team wouldn't be much of a stretch - and it isn't for Jack - especially given the other positive factors I alluded to earlier.

Couldn't be bothered to read your whole post, but I'm guessing you are smart enough to be agreeing that Scottish football is crap, hold your heads up though you only lost by 2 to the mighty Peru.

I think this post shows the crux of the matter.

Peru is a nation more than 6 times the size of Scotland, they are in the World Cup and we are playing them away. And with an inexperienced team and most of our key players missing. And yet some English fans and self hating Scots are shocked we lost!

Of course we were likely to lose! Indeed, it's not a bad result at all, we apparently played quite well and only lost due to two errors from our third choice keeper (who plays in the English Championship).

Nothing to be ashamed of, and hopefully a good experience for the players.

I have a sneaky feeling we might come short against Mexico in the height of summer too - and no doubt losing a nation with almost 25x more people will be a massive shock, Armageddon and a new low for Scottish football. Some things never change!

 

[SF_]

What's the overall population of that region, though? You can't really make a comparison otherwise.

Certainly, as metropolitan areas Liverpool and Manchester won't compare to Glasgow.

On the whole Scotland as a nation is far more interested in football than England (and, indeed, pretty much everywhere else in the world). England and Scotland have been playing football for 150 years and it's something that has always been the case, for a variety of factors.

Cricket and rugby have not penetrated Scotland to anywhere near the same extent as they have in England. It's very much a one game nation. It's not a criticism of English football by any means, which has great support relative to similar sized nations.

And Scottish L1 and below is part time and would be comparable with part time football in England. Some clubs with astonishing histories though - say Queens Park. They have actually managed more English FA Cup finals than Bradford.

This is from the internet so can't say 100% but...

Lancashire - 1.17m
Merseyside 1.38m
Greater Manchester - 2.78m

= 5.33m

Scotland = 5.295m

Just done a little read up on Queens Park, interesting club.

 

[Bobbin']

Not sure using Jordan Archer to back-up your argument is a great idea.

He’s dropped clangers all season long and is still deemed as one of Scotland’s top 3 keepers.

 

[rudebwoyben]

TNS are not League 1 standard. At the very most they would be competitive in the National League North. When manager there, Craig Harrison was always angling for the Wrexham job which he wouldn’t have done if it was a downwards move.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

What's the overall population of that region, though? You can't really make a comparison otherwise.

Certainly, as metropolitan areas Liverpool and Manchester won't compare to Glasgow.

On the whole Scotland as a nation is far more interested in football than England (and, indeed, pretty much everywhere else in the world). England and Scotland have been playing football for 150 years and it's something that has always been the case, for a variety of factors.

Cricket and rugby have not penetrated Scotland to anywhere near the same extent as they have in England. It's very much a one game nation. It's not a criticism of English football by any means, which has great support relative to similar sized nations.

And Scottish L1 and below is part time and would be comparable with part time football in England. Some clubs with astonishing histories though - say Queens Park. They have actually managed more English FA Cup finals than Bradford.



Except Graham Carey was unsuccessful at St Mirren (in his second spell) and released. As was Gregg Wylde. Indeed, Aaron Mooey who is currently doing well in the Premiership was released by St. Mirren. Mahrez had a trial here and wasn't offered a contract.

Individual player level is a very flawed indicator, there are many reasons why some players can be successful at some levels and others not. You might think the fact that Cummings does well in the SPFL but not the Championship is damning indictment of the former, however, how would you explain Daryl Murphy where the opposite applies? Or Joey Barton who was a miserable failure in the SPFL and Championship team of the year? And so on, and so on.

But broadly, we agree, St. Mirren are a roughly equivalent league two club and most SPFL teams are league one, with some Championship, and then Celtic.

However, the first post I responded to was incredulity that Ross was appointed given his only experience was at Scottish Championship Level (equivalent to NI level apparently). It's good we got away from this nonsense, Ross' experience so far is roughly equivalent to taking a league 2 team with a middling budget on a miraculous escape, then winning the league at a canter the next season. If a manager had done that, a relegated Championship team wouldn't be much of a stretch - and it isn't for Jack - especially given the other positive factors I alluded to earlier.



I think this post shows the crux of the matter.

Peru is a nation more than 6 times the size of Scotland, they are in the World Cup and we are playing them away. And with an inexperienced team and most of our key players missing. And yet some English fans and self hating Scots are shocked we lost!

Of course we were likely to lose! Indeed, it's not a bad result at all, we apparently played quite well and only lost due to two errors from our third choice keeper (who plays in the English Championship).

Nothing to be ashamed of, and hopefully a good experience for the players.

I have a sneaky feeling we might come short against Mexico in the height of summer too - and no doubt losing a nation with almost 25x more people will be a massive shock, Armageddon and a new low for Scottish football. Some things never change!

Not sure why you keep bringing populations up, they're far more irrelevant than you are making out. Unless you expect us to be spanked to the mighty India, Bangladesh, China and USA. All countries that have far more vast populations than us. What is the state of Peru's domestic game, are they even professional? What about when Celtic were held in a 90 minute game to a team from Gibraltar, do we mention population differences then? Or the team from Luxembourg that beat Rangers last season? Only when it suits your flawed argument eh?

Unsure why you are bringing QoS and Bradford's FA cup final appearances, we weren't founded when they last featured so again irrelevant. Also Bradford has nothing to do with the current state of Scottish football neither do attendances, the quality is terrible which was my point, all you have to do is watch a game on TV or see how they fail in Europe against crap.

Scottish football used to be good, hence competing in Europe and Scotland competing at national level, but them days are well gone, your national team selection yesterday proved it.

 

[SoutheySWFC]

I'd say as a nation the Scots love Celtic and Rangers, the rest are largely ignored.

 

[St. Juste]

This is from the internet so can't say 100% but...

Lancashire - 1.17m
Merseyside 1.38m

I'd say as a nation the Scots love Celtic and Rangers, the rest are largely ignored.

Greater Manchester - 2.78m

= 5.33m

Scotland = 5.295m

Just done a little read up on Queens Park, interesting club.

Right, but from that list, the region where football is most prominent in England (versus the whole of Scotland) the number of professional teams is still quite a few higher in Scotland.

Some bigger clubs sure, but it's not an apples to apples to comparison.

A better comparison would be Glasgow metropolitan area 1.2m versus Lvierpool at 1.17m.

For Glasgow this would be 6 professional clubs (including two of the biggest in Scotland) as well as many other semi professional clubs (and Queens Park). For Liverpool is it 3, 4?

TNS are not League 1 standard. At the very most they would be competitive in the National League North. When manager there, Craig Harrison was always angling for the Wrexham job which he wouldn’t have done if it was a downwards move.

Correct, I think their owner wildly overstated their level. They were schooled by a team having their worst ever season in 130 years, marooned at the bottom of the Scottish second tier.

Not sure why you keep bringing populations up, they're far more irrelevant than you are making out. Unless you expect us to be spanked to the mighty India, Bangladesh, China and USA. All countries that have far more vast populations than us. What is the state of Peru's domestic game, are they even professional? What about when Celtic were held in a 90 minute game to a team from Gibraltar, do we mention population differences then? Or the team from Luxembourg that beat Rangers last season? Only when it suits your flawed argument eh?

Unsure why you are bringing QoS and Bradford's FA cup final appearances, we weren't founded when they last featured so again irrelevant. Also Bradford has nothing to do with the current state of Scottish football neither do attendances, the quality is terrible which was my point, all you have to do is watch a game on TV or see how they fail in Europe against crap.

Scottish football used to be good, hence competing in Europe and Scotland competing at national level, but them days are well gone, your national team selection yesterday proved it.

Not at all, population is an incredibly relevant factor when comparing two nations where football is the dominant sport. Hence why I have compared Scotland to England, Norway and Peru (but not Bangladesh).

Peruvian domestic football is absolutely professional and has been for a long time. Many of their players play in Europe anyway.

Celtic were rightly cirticised for that game, and somewhat shut everyone up when they hammered them in the second leg. As for Rangers and Luxembourg - an awful result and incredibly amusing.

Scottish football isn't immune to bad results, we will lose to smaller nations - but these are generally less frequent than the good results. On their way to the UEFA Cup final in 2008 the much mocked Rangers defeated teams from far larger nations.

And of course, Celtic not long ago beat AC Milan and Barcelona. It happens.

As for your "quality is terrible" trope you've already tried this, it's only relevant when you are saying what is terrible compared to. You said English football - fine. We are not as good as a nation with more than ten times our population. It's not something to be ashamed of.

As for our performances in Europe, how many other smaller nations had CL group stage teams the past two years? How many have reached two European finals this millennium?

Even when Scotland were good, in 1978, we lost to Peru.

Now, many of our advantages have gone. We haven't gotten worse - the playing field has levelled and we have become a middling team for our population. Our illustrious history means nothing, domestically money will be funneled into the top 5 leagues and Dutch football, Portuguese football, Brazilian football have all massively suffered. This is a process we don't control and can't stop.

As for our national team, we will (and have) perform what you would expect a European nation of 5 million people to perform. We can beat France twice, and lose to Lithuania.

It's neither good nor bad - just life.

 

[St. Juste]

Not sure using Jordan Archer to back-up your argument is a great idea.

He’s dropped clangers all season long and is still deemed as one of Scotland’s top 3 keepers.

Not sure England are really in a position to criticise the goalkepeers of other nations.

He was POTY at his club last season, shouldn't be written off yet but there is decent competition for 3rd choice spot from SPFL keepers.

I'd say as a nation the Scots love Celtic and Rangers, the rest are largely ignored.

A common misconception. Even discounting the OF entirely, Scotland would still have a proportional attendance in the top 10 in the world (even without normalising others in the list).

 

[Leo]

As for Rangers and Luxembourg - an awful result and incredibly amusing.

Incredibly amusing ? Why so ? As a 'self proclaimed' exponent of Scottish football one could be forgiven for thinking that you would have been disappointed at such a poor result!

On their way to the UEFA Cup final in 2008 the much mocked Rangers defeated teams from far larger nations.

Much mocked ? By whom & how so....explain ?

 

[Leo]

And what possibly is your evidence for this?

Ah, the old evidence request....ring any bells ?.....

 

[St. Juste]

Incredibly amusing ? Why so ? As a 'self proclaimed' exponent of Scottish football one could be forgiven for thinking that you would have been disappointed at such a poor result!


Much mocked ? By whom & how so....explain ?

Amusing because Rangers and Celtic are such awful clubs who are disliked by everyone in Scottish football. Failing against minnows is greeted with amusement, doing okay with a shrug, and doing well with a shrug (and occasional gritted praise).

As for why Rangers are mocked - are you kidding? Have you been living in a cave for the last 10 years? The banter years have been incredibly amusing.

For a comparison for English football fans to understand - it's like Manchester United, Leeds, Millwall and MK Dons combined doing badly. Of course you will find it funny.