Jack Ross New Sunderland Manager

[St. Juste]

I engaged as he totally went off topic as to the point I was making, and kept coming for my posts. I only brought up Ross and how the lack of quality in Scotland meant he would have a difficult job on, and have a lot to prove down here. I couldn't give a shit about Scottish populations or attendances or the other crap he kept peddling.

Except population is a key factor in what the quality should be, whilst attendances are an indication of what it is.

You may think population makes no difference to the quality of the domestic game. You'd be wrong.

You might think high attendances mean nothing about the quality on show. This would also be wrong.

You asserted that Scottish football is objectively poor quality and getting worse.

Be specific now, where is the evidence for either of these claims?

Just to reiterate, I didn't come on this thread to big up Scottish football. Someone claimed it was Northern Ireland standard and I corrected him, with facts and data.

I posted St. Mirren are equivalent to a League Two Club, with the SPFL league one with some Championship and Celtic. Most posters agreed with this assessment.

So Ross coming from St. Mirren is roughly equivalent to taking a down and out league two side from bottom one season to romping champions the next. A fair call to get a high profile league one job. He has no more to prove than anyone else in that position.

It is particularly amusing though in the fact that it's coming from someone who I imagine delights in England's failures at major tournaments when in actual fact, when competing against countries with much larger populations, the final 16/quarter final is a fair achievement.

Correct, when they competing against nations of a similar size.

The last twice they went out to Iceland, and Costa Rica / Uruguay.

 

[Bobbin']

Correct, when they competing against nations of a similar size.

The last twice they went out to Iceland, and Costa Rica / Uruguay.

So, the quarter-final is a good achievement for a country of England's size unless they are knocked out in a one-off game against a side with a smaller population?

By your logic then, despite winning the World Cup more times than anyone else - Brazil are actually the perennial failures of the tournament.

 

[Leo]

I was referring them to being mocked afterwards. Rangers were a defensive and effective side in 2008.

You should have mentioned that separately rather than in the breath of speaking about '2008'. From such a wordsmith as yourself I expect far better!

Also, you can have a great interest in your team, but also find it amusing an arrogant and hated club falling apart and continually finding new and creative ways to humiliate themselves.

Of course you can, that's why you spend more time on here having a dig at Rangers amongst other things than extolling the virtues of you beloved Buddies.....Not unsurprising though. But as I have said on several occasions....water off a ducks back justy.

The on pitch AGM, Allys season ticket graph - this must be amusing even if you are a fan.

Not amusing....embarrassing and I make no bones about that. You really must be a saddo if you recall & retain some shit about McCoist.....Oh dear...St Mirren must be low in your priority list.....

However you continue to take the thread off topic....Go back to talking about Ross & Sunderland, there's a good lad.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

If you had no interest presumably you'd stop posting. Would certainly lift the tone of the debate.

You were the one who totally changed the topic with irrelevant nonsence, now you know where the exit to this thread is I suggest you walk through it instead of repeating yourself with meaningless crap.

 

[St. Juste]

So, the quarter-final is a good achievement for a country of England's size unless they are knocked out in a one-off game against a side with a smaller population?

By your logic then, despite winning the World Cup more times than anyone else - Brazil are actually the perennial failures of the tournament.

Yeah, it's a decent achievement, but it would certainly matter who they were playing before. With an easy route is far less impressive than beating Germany and Brazil to get to said QF.

Brazil aren't the perennial failures, but they absolutely do go in to win every one and are bitterly disappointed when they do not.

Of football mad nations, the one that massively underperforms in terms of winners, finalists, SFs etc. is England. It used to be Spain but now it is unequivocally England.

Turkey and Russia are pretty poor too but the former has none of the history and the latter has ice hockey as an equally dominant sport.

Rather, relative to Western European rivals like France, Spain, Germany, Italy and (far smaller) countries like the Netherlands the record of England is pretty awful.

Is this surprising? I thought most people knew England sucked.

You were the one who totally changed the topic with irrelevant nonsence, now you know where the exit to this thread is I suggest you walk through it instead of repeating yourself with meaningless crap.

"You may think population makes no difference to the quality of the domestic game. You'd be wrong.

You might think high attendances mean nothing about the quality on show. This would also be wrong.

You asserted that Scottish football is objectively poor quality and getting worse.

Be specific now, where is the evidence for either of these claims?"

A no on the above, then? What is your post meant to achieve? You are saying stuff but not contributing at all to the debate - why bother?

 

[WilsdenBantam]

Yeah, it's a decent achievement, but it would certainly matter who they were playing before. With an easy route is far less impressive than beating Germany and Brazil to get to said QF.

Brazil aren't the perennial failures, but they absolutely do go in to win every one and are bitterly disappointed when they do not.

Of football mad nations, the one that massively underperforms in terms of winners, finalists, SFs etc. is England. It used to be Spain but now it is unequivocally England.

Turkey and Russia are pretty poor too but the former has none of the history and the latter has ice hockey as an equally dominant sport.

Rather, relative to Western European rivals like France, Spain, Germany, Italy and (far smaller) countries like the Netherlands the record of England is pretty awful.

Is this surprising? I thought most people knew England sucked.



"You may think population makes no difference to the quality of the domestic game. You'd be wrong.

You might think high attendances mean nothing about the quality on show. This would also be wrong.

You asserted that Scottish football is objectively poor quality and getting worse.

Be specific now, where is the evidence for either of these claims?"

A no on the above, then? What is your post meant to achieve? You are saying stuff but not contributing at all to the debate - why bother?

Still going mate? You do realise I stopped reading the content of your posts when you brought Bradford into it don't you? It has zero relevance to the thread or my post but feel free to keep wasting your time posting wrong stuff that has no relevance.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

Do you expect them to come on here and post about how totally wrong they were in stating that Northern Ireland was a comparable level to the Scottish Championship?

Of course not, people don't like admitting their ignorance - they will just slink off.

It's only you that keeps posting long after you've had anything worthwhile to say. You think Scottish football is objectively terrible and getting worse - yet you have no evidence for either.

It wasn't me who came onto this thread extolling the quality of Scottish football, it was correcting someone else incorrectly stating it was the equivalent of Northern Irish football.

As for why I keep mentioning Wales and Northern Ireland, comparing Scottish football to them is a far more accurate comparison than comparing it to English football.

But it's a behaviours thing as well, English fans love to put down Scottish football - why? Do German fans put down Austrian football? Do Italian fans put down Slovenian football?

It's so bizarre yet so prevalent - why? What is the reason for it?

So can you answer my question and actually just show the post that justifies you talking about Northern Ireland so much?

I never said Scottish football was objectively terrible and getting worse. You sound a bit confused.

 

[St. Juste]

Still going mate? You do realise I stopped reading the content of your posts when you brought Bradford into it don't you? It has zero relevance to the thread or my post but feel free to keep wasting your time posting wrong stuff that has no relevance.

So....what point are you making? Are you actually saying anything?

So can you answer my question and actually just show the post that justifies you talking about Northern Ireland so much?

I never said Scottish football was objectively terrible and getting worse. You sound a bit confused.

This post on the first page of the thread.

Looks like this Ross chap has done a reasonable job at St Mirren but how come Champ/upper L1 teams are so interested? The Scottish second tier is NL standard.

I have comprehensively disproven that, as well as a few other misconceptions about Scottish football.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

So....what point are you making? Are you actually saying anything?



This post on the first page of the thread.



I have comprehensively disproven that, as well as a few other misconceptions about Scottish football.

You'd have to go make to my original post if it bothers you that much(I'm not repeating myself I'll leave that to you), before you came at me with inane drivel.

 

[St. Juste]

You'd have to go make to my original post if it bothers you that much(I'm not repeating myself I'll leave that to you), before you came at me with inane drivel.

Really? You've been doing it for some time.

And I expect you will post again after this. How many posts will you make before realising you haven't said anything? 5, 10? How much longer will you repeat yourself?

 

[WilsdenBantam]

Really? You've been doing it for some time.

And I expect you will post again after this. How many posts will you make before realising you haven't said anything? 5, 10? How much longer will you repeat yourself?

I said my point on my first post, you came at me with nonsence so I keep replying. Got you on a string and you have wasted so much time replying, just like you'll waste your time watching a real footballing nation like England at the World Cup, or giants like Peru of course.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

This post on the first page of the thread.



I have comprehensively disproven that, as well as a few other misconceptions about Scottish football.

Doesn't NL mean National league?

 

[Marked Ox]

Doesn't NL mean National league?

I would expect so.

 

[Leo]

Doesn't NL mean National league?

And that error was made by someone who knows so much about so much. He will always trip himself up....failed once again.....

 

[St. Juste]

I said my point on my first post, you came at me with nonsence so I keep replying. Got you on a string and you have wasted so much time replying, just like you'll waste your time watching a real footballing nation like England at the World Cup, or giants like Peru of course.

So your intention was to waste my time?

Hmm, interesting use of your time I guess.

Doesn't NL mean National league?

I see, however, the conclusion reached by other posters, based on the evidence, is that it is actually equivalent to L2 rather than National League.

Indeed, the average attendance of most NL teams is less than half that of St. Mirren. Case is made even more comprehensively.

 

[Marked Ox]

So your intention was to waste my time?

Hmm, interesting use of your time I guess.



I see, however, the conclusion reached by other posters, based on the evidence, is that it is actually equivalent to L2 rather than National League.

Indeed, the average attendance of most NL teams is less than half that of St. Mirren. Case is made even more comprehensively.

What if the NL clubs are compared with Dumbarton, Brechin, Queen of the South or Livingston? Then the case is even more comprehensively disproved as 18 clubs have a greater average.

And obviously crowds prove the quality of players.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

So your intention was to waste my time?

Hmm, interesting use of your time I guess.



I see, however, the conclusion reached by other posters, based on the evidence, is that it is actually equivalent to L2 rather than National League.

Indeed, the average attendance of most NL teams is less than half that of St. Mirren. Case is made even more comprehensively.

Not using up my time, takes me 30 seconds to reply if that and I was reading on here anyway, you are desperate for the last word. So I'll say no more, fill your boots.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

So your intention was to waste my time?

Hmm, interesting use of your time I guess.



I see, however, the conclusion reached by other posters, based on the evidence, is that it is actually equivalent to L2 rather than National League.

Indeed, the average attendance of most NL teams is less than half that of St. Mirren. Case is made even more comprehensively.

St Mirren's average attendance was lower than the L2 average. They won the league. Comparing L2 and the second tier on this basis is entirely disingenuous, it's clear L2 is ahead.

National League is entirely fair as a comparison. Good God you've wasted your time here.

Can you show me where other posters have accepted your evidence and agreed division one is equal to L2?

 

[St. Juste]

What if the NL clubs are compared with Dumbarton, Brechin, Queen of the South or Livingston? Then the case is even more comprehensively disproved as 18 clubs have a greater average.

And obviously crowds prove the quality of players.

Those are NL clubs, St. MIrren (and others in the Championship) are not.

Not using up my time, takes me 30 seconds to reply if that and I was reading on here anyway, you are desperate for the last word. So I'll say no more, fill your boots.

If only you had realised this sooner you could have not wasted everyone's time.

St Mirren's average attendance was lower than the L2 average. They won the league. Comparing L2 and the second tier on this basis is entirely disingenuous, it's clear L2 is ahead.

National League is entirely fair as a comparison. Good God you've wasted your time here.

Can you show me where other posters have accepted your evidence and agreed division one is equal to L2?

Show your working for this.

St. Mirren don't even have the highest attendance in the league, we had a mid table budget.

 

[SoutheySWFC]

Those are NL clubs, St. MIrren (and others in the Championship) are not.



If only you had realised this sooner you could have not wasted everyone's time.



Show your working for this.

St. Mirren don't even have the highest attendance in the league, we had a mid table budget.

Per EFS attendances St Mirren averaged 4,448 last season, the 24 Lg2 teams average was 4,474 (that's from my workings which can be found on wordpress). My figures are widely accepted as being accurate, cos i can read and type.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

Show your working for this.

St. Mirren don't even have the highest attendance in the league, we had a mid table budget.

So you can't show me the posts where people accepted your evidence that the second division was L2 standard?

My workings:

St Mirren averaged 4,448 last season

L2 averaged 4,474.

4,474 is higher than 4,448.

There is absolutely nothing in the attendance figures to invalidate the comparison with the National League.

 

[Marked Ox]

Those are NL clubs, St. MIrren (and others in the Championship) are not.



If only you had realised this sooner you could have not wasted everyone's time.



Show your working for this.

St. Mirren don't even have the highest attendance in the league, we had a mid table budget.

They were in the same division as St Mirren so makes you NL then.

 

[St. Juste]

Per EFS attendances St Mirren averaged 4,448 last season, the 24 Lg2 teams average was 4,474 (that's from my workings which can be found on wordpress). My figures are widely accepted as being accurate, cos i can read and type.

So we are a NL club because we are a few hundred from the average of a L2 team?

Do you know how averages work?

And, as stated before, we had the 4th biggest attendance and budget in the league (out of 10 teams).

As to whether or not this is impressive enough for Ross to get linked with bigger jobs, well, the people who matter certainly think it is. He was offered the Sunderland job and turned down the Barnsley job before he'd even won the league.

Did any national league managers get linked with Sunderland?

 

[Vic Rattlehead]

Jack Ross was never offered the Barnsley job. Even without the benefit of hindsight I'm glad he wasn't.

The comparison between the NL and the Scottish Championship is a fair one. In fact I would say the NL is a higher standard - there are/were decent sized clubs in there such as Tranmere, Wrexham, Torquay and so on. In the Scottish second tier you play eight games against Dumbarton and Brechin City who are tiny part time clubs with average attendances below 1,000.

Managers very rarely move from this level to jobs in the English football league. There is a reason for this.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

So we are a NL club because we are a few hundred from the average of a L2 team?

Do you know how averages work?

And, as stated before, we had the 4th biggest attendance and budget in the league (out of 10 teams).

As to whether or not this is impressive enough for Ross to get linked with bigger jobs, well, the people who matter certainly think it is. He was offered the Sunderland job and turned down the Barnsley job before he'd even won the league.

Did any national league managers get linked with Sunderland?

But the average second division attendance is 2,881. That's so far below the L2 average that the comparison is laughable. 2,045 in the National league looks like a better fit.

If you remember the comments that originally got you involved in this thread, we were all surprised at the hype Ross got precisely because no NL managers were linked. Your last comment is circular.

 

[SoutheySWFC]

So we are a NL club because we are a few hundred from the average of a L2 team?

Do you know how averages work?

And, as stated before, we had the 4th biggest attendance and budget in the league (out of 10 teams).

As to whether or not this is impressive enough for Ross to get linked with bigger jobs, well, the people who matter certainly think it is. He was offered the Sunderland job and turned down the Barnsley job before he'd even won the league.

Did any national league managers get linked with Sunderland?

Yes in know how averages work you boring fucknugget, I have not once called St Mirren a non league club

 

[Marked Ox]

But the average second division attendance is 2,881. That's so far below the L2 average that the comparison is laughable. 2,045 in the National league looks like a better fit.

If you remember the comments that originally got you involved in this thread, we were all surprised at the hype Ross got precisely because no NL managers were linked. Your last comment is circular.

Agreed. They are comparing Apples with Pears so getting an utterly wrong result.

They also keep making the mistake of judging the quality of a League by the crowds which is a very poor measure, although easy to do assuming measuring like with like which they aren't. Following their logic when we or Luton were in the Conference (NL) we should have been in upper L2 at least. Likewise now, Sunderland should be upper Championship/PL whilst Accrington should be in the NL, yet they are both in L1. Likewise Stockport should be in L2 as well following the same logic. That is the gigantic flaw in the argument.

 

[St. Juste]

Jack Ross was never offered the Barnsley job. Even without the benefit of hindsight I'm glad he wasn't.

The comparison between the NL and the Scottish Championship is a fair one. In fact I would say the NL is a higher standard - there are/were decent sized clubs in there such as Tranmere, Wrexham, Torquay and so on. In the Scottish second tier you play eight games against Dumbarton and Brechin City who are tiny part time clubs with average attendances below 1,000.

Managers very rarely move from this level to jobs in the English football league. There is a reason for this.

He spoke to Barnsley, and turned down the opportunity of speaking to them further. As to whether or not he was actually offered the job, there is a long and very boring discussion about this. Who cares? He definitely turned the chance of speaking to them further.

Ah yes, Wrexham are a decent sized club. Almost as big and successful as the former UEFA cup finalists in the Scottish Championship.

It will be interesting to see if it is more common for Scottish Championship managers to move to L1 than National league managers.

But the average second division attendance is 2,881. That's so far below the L2 average that the comparison is laughable. 2,045 in the National league looks like a better fit.

If you remember the comments that originally got you involved in this thread, we were all surprised at the hype Ross got precisely because no NL managers were linked. Your last comment is circular.

And so far above the National League to make the comparison laughable. There are small, part time teams in the Scottish Championship. Undoubtedly, Brechin didn't win a game all season.

St. Mirren and others in the league are comfortably league 2 standard (higher attendances than some in League 1 too).

And then there is two tiny part time clubs probably below National level.

Agreed. They are comparing Apples with Pears so getting an utterly wrong result.

They also keep making the mistake of judging the quality of a League by the crowds which is a very poor measure, although easy to do assuming measuring like with like which they aren't. Following their logic when we or Luton were in the Conference (NL) we should have been in upper L2 at least. Likewise now, Sunderland should be upper Championship/PL whilst Accrington should be in the NL, yet they are both in L1. Likewise Stockport should be in L2 as well following the same logic. That is the gigantic flaw in the argument.

All measures are flawed. St. Mirren are a much smaller team than Dundee United but were comfortably better than them this season.

How would you compare countries cross border? Players is flawed, as is attendances.

Fundamentally, Sunderland (and Championship) teams were interested in Jack Ross from the 'national league' standard Scottish Championship.

Seems the people that matter think more highly of the league (and the person, look at my first post) than disgruntled lower league fans who think Ross County play East Fife. Who would have thought it?

 

[Caer]

Well I for one am looking forward to Jack Ross at Sunderland. He's already decided not to renew John O'Shea's contract which is a step in the right direction at least.

 

[Marked Ox]

He spoke to Barnsley, and turned down the opportunity of speaking to them further. As to whether or not he was actually offered the job, there is a long and very boring discussion about this. Who cares? He definitely turned the chance of speaking to them further.

Ah yes, Wrexham are a decent sized club. Almost as big and successful as the former UEFA cup finalists in the Scottish Championship.

It will be interesting to see if it is more common for Scottish Championship managers to move to L1 than National league managers.



And so far above the National League to make the comparison laughable. There are small, part time teams in the Scottish Championship. Undoubtedly, Brechin didn't win a game all season.

St. Mirren and others in the league are comfortably league 2 standard (higher attendances than some in League 1 too).

And then there is two tiny part time clubs probably below National level.



All measures are flawed. St. Mirren are a much smaller team than Dundee United but were comfortably better than them this season.

How would you compare countries cross border? Players is flawed, as is attendances.

Fundamentally, Sunderland (and Championship) teams were interested in Jack Ross from the 'national league' standard Scottish Championship.

Seems the people that matter think more highly of the league (and the person, look at my first post) than disgruntled lower league fans who think Ross County play East Fife. Who would have thought it?

I certainly wouldn't gauge the quality of players in a league or the quality of the league based on crowds as there are so many other factors. Otherwise there would be far more Mexicans, Americans and Chinese playing in Europe considering their leagues get better averages than a number of European leagues.

Likewise by your comparison method, the Thai top flight is nearly twice the quality of the Scottish Championship as its average crowd for the last season was 4,741. I suspect it really isn't. I actually reckon it will be a far lower quality. Their top team would be nearly 3 times better than St Mirren as they had an average of 11,934 but in reality I reckon they will be of a lower standard.

To further highlight how absurd it is judge the quality of a league using crowds, in the National League North, Stockport County averaged 3,578 and York City 2,754, whilst in the Southern League Premier Hereford averaged 2,553. Those crowds could all fit in the Football League but the teams are clearly not a good enough standard to be so.