Jack Ross New Sunderland Manager

[LondonOrn]

Much mocked ? By whom & how so....explain ?

By the press and fans alike.

Dick Advocaat was already regarded as something of a dinosaur and his team were derided as being boring, negative and anti-football (with unfavourable comparisons drawn to Celtic's run to the UEFA Cup final five years previously) and I even remember vaguely one correspondent to Ceefax saying that they should be thrown out of the competition! They drew 0-0 in three of their home games, scraping past Werder Bremen after losing the away leg and needed penalties to beat Fiorentina after 0-0s in both legs. There was a fair bit of schadenfreude when Rangers got hammered by Zenit St Petersburg (a mid-tier European team at best) and got their "just deserts".

Ridiculous criticism really, and I understand the Old Firm aren't greatly liked even outside Scotland, but still for even one of them to get to a European cup final is certainly not to be sniffed at, and without the resources and quality of the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal of course they're not going to outplay the big European teams and will do what they can to progress, if it makes for a poor spectacle on TV, that's too bad.

 

[SoutheySWFC]

At least my insomnia will be sorted tonight

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

It looks like we have accepted the Scottish second division is a pub league, and we are now coming up with reasons why. Is that a fair summary?

 

[WilsdenBantam]

Nobody cares about Scottish football on here mate, you are wasting your own time with long winded posts. Let it go, Scottish football has fallen of a cliff, just except it.

 

[St. Juste]

By the press and fans alike.

Dick Advocaat was already regarded as something of a dinosaur and his team were derided as being boring, negative and anti-football (with unfavourable comparisons drawn to Celtic's run to the UEFA Cup final five years previously) and I even remember vaguely one correspondent to Ceefax saying that they should be thrown out of the competition! They drew 0-0 in three of their home games, scraping past Werder Bremen after losing the away leg and needed penalties to beat Fiorentina after 0-0s in both legs. There was a fair bit of schadenfreude when Rangers got hammered by Zenit St Petersburg (a mid-tier European team at best) and got their "just deserts".

Ridiculous criticism really, and I understand the Old Firm aren't greatly liked even outside Scotland, but still for even one of them to get to a European cup final is certainly not to be sniffed at, and without the resources and quality of the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal of course they're not going to outplay the big European teams and will do what they can to progress, if it makes for a poor spectacle on TV, that's too bad.

Fair summary but Dick Advocaat wasn't manager the time - he left 7 years before and it was Walter Smith.

It looks like we have accepted the Scottish second division is a pub league, and we are now coming up with reasons why. Is that a fair summary?

Not at all, we're disproving a lot of the ignorance that surrounds Scottish football.

You might not accept that and prefer to be ignorant, which is fine, most English fans struggle to accept Scottish football isn't objectively terrible and on a level with semi pro Northern Ireland.

As alluded to earlier, it's a weird position to take. I've never mocked the level of Welsh football, even if we are far better.

Nobody cares about Scottish football on here mate, you are wasting your own time with long winded posts. Let it go, Scottish football has fallen of a cliff, just except it.

Our attendances rose again last year, we have been on an upward trend for a while.

You can't argue with the facts, accept it or don't.

Also, except rather than accept!? Fantastic.

 

[Leo]

By the press and fans alike.

Dick Advocaat was already regarded as something of a dinosaur and his team were derided as being boring, negative and anti-football (with unfavourable comparisons drawn to Celtic's run to the UEFA Cup final five years previously) and I even remember vaguely one correspondent to Ceefax saying that they should be thrown out of the competition! They drew 0-0 in three of their home games, scraping past Werder Bremen after losing the away leg and needed penalties to beat Fiorentina after 0-0s in both legs. There was a fair bit of schadenfreude when Rangers got hammered by Zenit St Petersburg (a mid-tier European team at best) and got their "just deserts".

Ridiculous criticism really, and I understand the Old Firm aren't greatly liked even outside Scotland, but still for even one of them to get to a European cup final is certainly not to be sniffed at, and without the resources and quality of the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal of course they're not going to outplay the big European teams and will do what they can to progress, if it makes for a poor spectacle on TV, that's too bad.

Actually Advocaat was manager of Zenit in that final mate. Criticism....yes....but mocking ? Don't recall that!

 

[Leo]

Nobody cares about Scottish football on here mate, you are wasting your own time with long winded posts. Let it go, Scottish football has fallen of a cliff, just except it.

Irrespective of your outlook, there are some of us who do! As much as I disagree with St Juste and his meandering posts he has an interest in Scottish football.

 

[LondonOrn]

Fair summary but Dick Advocaat wasn't manager the time - he left 7 years before and it was Walter Smith.

Actually Advocaat was manager of Zenit in that final mate. Criticism....yes....but mocking ? Don't recall that!

Oops, I should be a bit more careful with my googling in future - no matter, my point stands even more. Everton fans were mighty glad to get rid of him and that was six years previously!

 

[SoutheySWFC]

Irrespective of your outlook, there are some of us who do! As much as I disagree with St Juste and his meandering posts he has an interest in Scottish football.

Maybe, in the right section

 

[Leo]

Oops, I should be a bit more careful with my googling in future - no matter, my point stands even more. Everton fans were mighty glad to get rid of him and that was six years previously!

Why ?

 

[Leo]

Maybe, in the right section

couldn't agree more mate.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

Not at all, we're disproving a lot of the ignorance that surrounds Scottish football.

You might not accept that and prefer to be ignorant, which is fine, most English fans struggle to accept Scottish football isn't objectively terrible and on a level with semi pro Northern Ireland.

As alluded to earlier, it's a weird position to take. I've never mocked the level of Welsh football, even if we are far better.

you haven't disproved anything, I haven't seen one person swayed by your arguments.

why do you keep mentioning Wales and N Ireland?

 

[Leo]

Amusing because Rangers and Celtic are such awful clubs who are disliked by everyone in Scottish football. Failing against minnows is greeted with amusement, doing okay with a shrug, and doing well with a shrug (and occasional gritted praise).

Well so much for your 'constant' standing up for Scottish football......only when it suits eh ? Remind me....outwith Rangers, Celtic & Aberdeen how many Scottish clubs have won a European trophy ?....Shrug!

As for why Rangers are mocked - are you kidding? Have you been living in a cave for the last 10 years? The banter years have been incredibly amusing.

Don't try and be smart....you aren't and you can't do 'smart'. Of course the banter years have been amusing to fans of 'small' clubs primarily due to their disinterest in their own teams.....saddos that they are, however water off a ducks back here. Anyway you stated....'On their way to the UEFA Cup final in 2008 the much mocked Rangers defeated teams from far larger nations. ' so that being that I presumed (correctly) you were talking about 'being mocked' during the 2008 run in said competition? Perhaps you should word your pathetic attempts at put downs better because as sure as shit is shit they aint working....try harder son.

 

[Leo]

you haven't disproved anything, I haven't seen one person swayed by your arguments.

why do you keep mentioning Wales and N Ireland?

It's a favourite deflection tactic by him.

 

[LondonOrn]

Why ?

I thought it would have been obvious, Walter Smith wasn't exactly Mr Progressive even when Everton appointed him, let alone when they sacked him, even less so when Rangers appointed him. I thought it was an odd choice at the time, but in fairness he did well, even taking account of the minimal competition in the SPL.

 

[Leo]

I thought it would have been obvious, Walter Smith wasn't exactly Mr Progressive even when Everton appointed him, let alone when they sacked him, even less so when Rangers appointed him. I thought it was an odd choice at the time, but in fairness he did well, even taking account of the minimal competition in the SPL.

Nope....it wasn't obvious. Mocked ? For getting a team from Scotland to the final of a European Competition? False (and totally incorrect imo) sentiment indeed!

 

[LondonOrn]

Admittedly, there's some overlap between criticism and mocking to the point that it's easy to mix up the two, but I remember quite clearly that the negativity towards Rangers went far beyond constructive criticism.

Calling Rangers an embarrassment to the competition, wanting them thrown out, rejoicing at their heavy defeat, using Rangers' progression to the final as a stick to beat the UEFA Cup with (which many regard as the much poorer relation to the Champions League, as what the League Cup is to the FA Cup) is what I'd call mockery.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

Do we keep mentioning Celtic and Rangers because they're the only teams that might make a go of it in L1 or is there another reason?

 

[WilsdenBantam]

Fair summary but Dick Advocaat wasn't manager the time - he left 7 years before and it was Walter Smith.



Not at all, we're disproving a lot of the ignorance that surrounds Scottish football.

You might not accept that and prefer to be ignorant, which is fine, most English fans struggle to accept Scottish football isn't objectively terrible and on a level with semi pro Northern Ireland.

As alluded to earlier, it's a weird position to take. I've never mocked the level of Welsh football, even if we are far better.




Our attendances rose again last year, we have been on an upward trend for a while.

You can't argue with the facts, accept it or don't.

Also, except rather than accept!? Fantastic.

Still fighting the good fight eh!

Attendances having nothing to do with quality of football, or we wouldn't get higher than some Premier League and Championship clubs.

You could put a glass eye to sleep mate.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

Irrespective of your outlook, there are some of us who do! As much as I disagree with St Juste and his meandering posts he has an interest in Scottish football.

Let them get on with it on the Scottish part then, this is English league 1, most on here have no interest.

 

[SF_]

Right, but from that list, the region where football is most prominent in England (versus the whole of Scotland) the number of professional teams is still quite a few higher in Scotland.

Some bigger clubs sure, but it's not an apples to apples to comparison.

A better comparison would be Glasgow metropolitan area 1.2m versus Lvierpool at 1.17m.

For Glasgow this would be 6 professional clubs (including two of the biggest in Scotland) as well as many other semi professional clubs (and Queens Park). For Liverpool is it 3, 4?

Glasgow and Liverpool is a fair comparison but I was referring to Scotland as a whole, compared to another almost identically sized region.

I'm not really arguing here and there's no real point, just interested in which part of the UK has the most football fans per region and in terms of paying supporters, the north west or Yorkshire would be contenders for being the hotbed, midlands too depending how you split it up.

Basically, the more working class areas you have, the more football fans you have.

 

[Leo]

Admittedly, there's some overlap between criticism and mocking to the point that it's easy to mix up the two, but I remember quite clearly that the negativity towards Rangers went far beyond constructive criticism.

Calling Rangers an embarrassment to the competition, wanting them thrown out, rejoicing at their heavy defeat, using Rangers' progression to the final as a stick to beat the UEFA Cup with (which many regard as the much poorer relation to the Champions League, as what the League Cup is to the FA Cup) is what I'd call mockery.

Your opinion, your prerogative....I disagree & I don't recall (could be wrong mind) people of any importance wanting them thrown out of the CL competition. The 'parking the bus' comment was conjured up for the games at Ibrox (& away) against Barcelona (0-0) with wee Messi spitting the dummy (Barca won 2-0 @ home). Is that the 'heavy' defeat you mention ? Anyway, if you have a mind to have a read of this link & you'll see some decent results achieved by Rangers during the combined CL & UEFA cup run.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-565973/RANGERS-ROUTE-TO-THE-UEFA-CUP-FINAL.html

 

[Leo]

Let them get on with it on the Scottish part then, this is English league 1, most on here have no interest.

I have no problem with that but to be fair you did engage justy lad in actually discussing certain aspects regards Scottish Football....if you didn't want it to be mentioned you shouldn't have made comments about it then all of a sudden say....'Let them get on with it etc etc'.

 

[LondonOrn]

Your opinion, your prerogative....I disagree & I don't recall (could be wrong mind) people of any importance wanting them thrown out of the CL competition. The 'parking the bus' comment was conjured up for the games at Ibrox (& away) against Barcelona (0-0) with wee Messi spitting the dummy (Barca won 2-0 @ home). Is that the 'heavy' defeat you mention ? Anyway, if you have a mind to have a read of this link & you'll see some decent results achieved by Rangers during the combined CL & UEFA cup run.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-565973/RANGERS-ROUTE-TO-THE-UEFA-CUP-FINAL.html

I'm aware of Rangers' results in that competition thanks, which I thought would have been pretty clear from that earlier post you quoted and I'm talking entirely about the UEFA Cup run (I didn't factor in their results in the CL, although I'm perfectly capable of looking those up myself). The hammering refers to the 4-0 defeat by Zenit in the Final. They did get some good results en route and I can't criticize the way they went about them, and all I'm saying is they did get a fair bit of excessively adverse publicity for their supposedly overly defensive and "boring" tactics. Not my opinion, just what I recall others saying (even if I may have misremembered one or two comments, but I can't unearth many of them as they come from sources that are no longer available).

 

[Leo]

I'm aware of Rangers' results in that competition thanks, which I thought would have been pretty clear from that earlier post you quoted and I'm talking entirely about the UEFA Cup run (I didn't factor in their results in the CL, although I'm perfectly capable of looking those up myself). The hammering refers to the 4-0 defeat by Zenit in the Final. They did get some good results en route and I can't criticize the way they went about them, and all I'm saying they did get a fair bit of excessively adverse publicity for their supposedly overly defensive and "boring" tactics. Not my opinion, just what I recall others saying (even if I may have misremembered one or two comments).

Apologies if you thought I was being condescending with my reply. I can assure you I certainly wasn't.

4-0 defeat in the final ? Think you've misremembered that part mate.....it was 2-0.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

I have no problem with that but to be fair you did engage justy lad in actually discussing certain aspects regards Scottish Football....if you didn't want it to be mentioned you shouldn't have made comments about it then all of a sudden say....'Let them get on with it etc etc'.

I engaged as he totally went off topic as to the point I was making, and kept coming for my posts. I only brought up Ross and how the lack of quality in Scotland meant he would have a difficult job on, and have a lot to prove down here. I couldn't give a shit about Scottish populations or attendances or the other crap he kept peddling.

 

[LondonOrn]

Apologies if you thought I was being condescending with my reply. I can assure you I certainly wasn't.

No worries.

4-0 defeat in the final ? Think you've misremembered that part mate.....it was 2-0.

Oops, there goes me again rushing to post without checking facts - clearly I got it muddled with the 4-0 defeat of Middlesbrough to Sevilla in the final two years previously. They certainly came in for a fair bit of criticism then ("their luck has run out", "this guy is going to be our England manager? WTF?" etc), and so did Rangers, but on further reflection I think it was more due to again their defensive approach than them being outclassed.

 

[Leo]

I engaged as he totally went off topic as to the point I was making, and kept coming for my posts. I only brought up Ross and how the lack of quality in Scotland meant he would have a difficult job on, and have a lot to prove down here. I couldn't give a shit about Scottish populations or attendances or the other crap he kept peddling.

Fair enough.....and for the record....neither can I!

 

[Bobbin']

It is particularly amusing though in the fact that it's coming from someone who I imagine delights in England's failures at major tournaments when in actual fact, when competing against countries with much larger populations, the final 16/quarter final is a fair achievement.

 

[St. Juste]

you haven't disproved anything, I haven't seen one person swayed by your arguments.

why do you keep mentioning Wales and N Ireland?

Do you expect them to come on here and post about how totally wrong they were in stating that Northern Ireland was a comparable level to the Scottish Championship?

Of course not, people don't like admitting their ignorance - they will just slink off.

It's only you that keeps posting long after you've had anything worthwhile to say. You think Scottish football is objectively terrible and getting worse - yet you have no evidence for either.

It wasn't me who came onto this thread extolling the quality of Scottish football, it was correcting someone else incorrectly stating it was the equivalent of Northern Irish football.

As for why I keep mentioning Wales and Northern Ireland, comparing Scottish football to them is a far more accurate comparison than comparing it to English football.

But it's a behaviours thing as well, English fans love to put down Scottish football - why? Do German fans put down Austrian football? Do Italian fans put down Slovenian football?

It's so bizarre yet so prevalent - why? What is the reason for it?

Don't try and be smart....you aren't and you can't do 'smart'. Of course the banter years have been amusing to fans of 'small' clubs primarily due to their disinterest in their own teams.....saddos that they are, however water off a ducks back here. Anyway you stated....'On their way to the UEFA Cup final in 2008 the much mocked Rangers defeated teams from far larger nations. ' so that being that I presumed (correctly) you were talking about 'being mocked' during the 2008 run in said competition? Perhaps you should word your pathetic attempts at put downs better because as sure as shit is shit they aint working....try harder son.

I was referring them to being mocked afterwards. Rangers were a defensive and effective side in 2008.

Also, you can have a great interest in your team, but also find it amusing an arrogant and hated club falling apart and continually finding new and creative ways to humiliate themselves.

The on pitch AGM, Allys season ticket graph - this must be amusing even if you are a fan.

Still fighting the good fight eh!

Attendances having nothing to do with quality of football, or we wouldn't get higher than some Premier League and Championship clubs.

You could put a glass eye to sleep mate.

So what is quality based on? You asserted we were terrible and getting worse - where is your evidence of this?

As for your final comment, do you think the Earth is flat? You are displaying the same behaviours - make wild unsupported claims then complain about being bored when real tangible, empirical evidence is provided.

Let them get on with it on the Scottish part then, this is English league 1, most on here have no interest.

If you had no interest presumably you'd stop posting. Would certainly lift the tone of the debate.