Jack Ross New Sunderland Manager

[St. Juste]

I certainly wouldn't gauge the quality of players in a league or the quality of the league based on crowds as there are so many other factors. Otherwise there would be far more Mexicans, Americans and Chinese playing in Europe considering their leagues get better averages than a number of European leagues.

Likewise by your comparison method, the Thai top flight is nearly twice the quality of the Scottish Championship as its average crowd for the last season was 4,741. I suspect it really isn't. I actually reckon it will be a far lower quality. Their top team would be nearly 3 times better than St Mirren as they had an average of 11,934 but in reality I reckon they will be of a lower standard.

To further highlight how absurd it is judge the quality of a league using crowds, in the National League North, Stockport County averaged 3,578 and York City 2,754, whilst in the Southern League Premier Hereford averaged 2,553. Those crowds could all fit in the Football League but the teams are clearly not a good enough standard to be so.

So, to reiterate, how would you compare the two?

Personally, I think it's an incredibly difficult (and somewhat pointless) exercise. Scottish football objectively does well relative to nations of similar size. Due to our proximity a lot of our players and management make the move to the far more lucrative English market.

We don't compete with them, but our increasing attendances (and outstanding proportional attendances) indicate we are happy, and getting happier, with the standard of our domestic game.

 

[Marked Ox]

So, to reiterate, how would you compare the two?

Personally, I think it's an incredibly difficult (and somewhat pointless) exercise. Scottish football objectively does well relative to nations of similar size. Due to our proximity a lot of our players and management make the move to the far more lucrative English market.

We don't compete with them, but our increasing attendances (and outstanding proportional attendances) indicate we are happy, and getting happier, with the standard of our domestic game.

With a lot of difficulty. Look at the players from that league and how they perform or have performed elsewhere, how many have been transferred to bigger leagues and how they have performed.

This would make far more sense than crowds as the Thai example suggests.

It sounds stupid but probably the most comprehensive look in comparing leagues/countries would be the Football Manager database even if based on some fact/some estimates. I'm not sure if anybody else has looked at it in such detail.

 

[St. Juste]

With a lot of difficulty. Look at the players from that league and how they perform or have performed elsewhere, how many have been transferred to bigger leagues and how they have performed.

This would make far more sense than crowds as the Thai example suggests.

It sounds stupid but probably the most comprehensive look in comparing leagues/countries would be the Football Manager database even if based on some fact/some estimates. I'm not sure if anybody else has looked at it in such detail.

Well, we released Mooy, didn't offer Mahrez a contract after a trial, and released Gregg Wylde and Graham Carey.

All went onto either great or okay careers in England.

Guess that puts us in a decent spot.

 

[Bobbin']

Or, your scouts/coaches aren’t very good.

 

[St. Juste]

Or, your scouts/coaches aren’t very good.

This is exactly the point I am making.

It is an incredibly flawed measure. Mooy was still a youngster making his way, to be fair, whereas we had plenty of time to see that Wylde and Carey weren't very good. Mahrez - who knows what happened there.

However, of course, if we are going to accept the above that should stop the "X went to Y English club and didn't perform therefore SPFL is rubbish" nonsense.

It's clearly far more complicated than that.

 

[SoutheySWFC]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[mase]

Well I for one am looking forward to Jack Ross at Sunderland. He's already decided not to renew John O'Shea's contract which is a step in the right direction at least.

First post on topic in this thread - well done you.

Although you can't mock John O'Shea, the man nutmegged Figo!

 

[Marked Ox]

This is exactly the point I am making.

It is an incredibly flawed measure. Mooy was still a youngster making his way, to be fair, whereas we had plenty of time to see that Wylde and Carey weren't very good. Mahrez - who knows what happened there.

However, of course, if we are going to accept the above that should stop the "X went to Y English club and didn't perform therefore SPFL is rubbish" nonsense.

It's clearly far more complicated than that.

Because obviously it would only be judged on 1 player.

It is still a better measure than using crowds although flawed. Especially when considered that based on average crowds, the Vietnamese top flight would be over 3 times a higher standard than the Scottish Championship.

It appears you are finally grasping it is complicated which is why I suggested the Football Manager database which has access to data on many different factors giving a better comparison.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

And so far above the National League to make the comparison laughable.

But closer to the National League, which makes it a better comparison than your ridiculous L2 assertion.

There are small, part time teams in the Scottish Championship. Undoubtedly, Brechin didn't win a game all season.

St. Mirren and others in the league are comfortably league 2 standard (higher attendances than some in League 1 too).

And then there is two tiny part time clubs probably below National level.

That is why we refer to averages. You do know how averages work, don't you?

Fundamentally, Sunderland (and Championship) teams were interested in Jack Ross from the 'national league' standard Scottish Championship.

Seems the people that matter think more highly of the league (and the person, look at my first post) than disgruntled lower league fans who think Ross County play East Fife. Who would have thought it?

Are you seriously saying that you must be right, or Sunderland would have potentially acted inefficiently, and asking us to choose what we think is more likely?

 

[St. Juste]

Because obviously it would only be judged on 1 player.

It is still a better measure than using crowds although flawed. Especially when considered that based on average crowds, the Vietnamese top flight would be over 3 times a higher standard than the Scottish Championship.

It appears you are finally grasping it is complicated which is why I suggested the Football Manager database which has access to data on many different factors giving a better comparison.

Er, what? I've been saying this from the start.....

And, no, I don't think the Football Manager database is a particularly useful comparison either. It will only take data from fans within that league and is a product to be sold, it wouldn't be surprising to see them artificially improve the leagues of the markets it actually sells in (Europe, USA vs. West Africa) for example.

And it wouldn't be judged on one player, hence why my post mentioned four players (and I've mentioned plenty others before that).

But closer to the National League, which makes it a better comparison than your ridiculous L2 assertion.

That is why we refer to averages. You do know how averages work, don't you?

Are you seriously saying that you must be right, or Sunderland would have potentially acted inefficiently, and asking us to choose what we think is more likely?

Except it's not a ridiculous assertion, St. Mirren and others in the league are comfortably league two standard.

Do we become a national league sized club purely because Brechin fluked a playoff then didn't win a game all season? Don't be ridiculous.

Sunderland have hired a manager of a club who wouldn't look out of place in League 1 or League 2 in terms of infrastructure, players or attendances. Don't know why you can't grasp this.

He won the league comfortably with a 4th placed budget, ahead of a club with much more pedigree and money behind them.

 

[SoutheySWFC]

No one really fucking cares.

 

[Marked Ox]

Er, what? I've been saying this from the start.....

And, no, I don't think the Football Manager database is a particularly useful comparison either. It will only take data from fans within that league and is a product to be sold, it wouldn't be surprising to see them artificially improve the leagues of the markets it actually sells in (Europe, USA vs. West Africa) for example.

And it wouldn't be judged on one player, hence why my post mentioned four players (and I've mentioned plenty others before that).



Except it's not a ridiculous assertion, St. Mirren and others in the league are comfortably league two standard.

Do we become a national league sized club purely because Brechin fluked a playoff then didn't win a game all season? Don't be ridiculous.

Sunderland have hired a manager of a club who wouldn't look out of place in League 1 or League 2 in terms of infrastructure, players or attendances. Don't know why you can't grasp this.

He won the league comfortably with a 4th placed budget, ahead of a club with much more pedigree and money behind them.

You really doth protest too much.

Your assertion of using crowds is ridiculous. Another further example to make the point is the Indian Super League, with the average crowds being over 5 times bigger than the Scottish Championship so it must be 5 times better in quality.

At least the Football Manager database looks at data across different areas (ie. Facilities, Players, crowds, finances etc) which will be also be moderated (partially through so many different contributors). This will be far more accurate than your guess using crowds.

Nice conspiracy theory as well about FM database, have you had a look at it and doesn't give the answer you want. Funnily enough some clubs have used that data as a starting point to look at players.

It appears the SPFL agree with the assessment of the Scottish Championship by everybody but you:

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/english-clubs-to-be-invited-to-play-in-irn-bru-cup-1-4749563

 

[WilsdenBantam]

You really doth protest too much.

Your assertion of using crowds is ridiculous. Another further example to make the point is the Indian Super League, with the average crowds being over 5 times bigger than the Scottish Championship so it must be 5 times better in quality.

At least the Football Manager database looks at data across different areas (ie. Facilities, Players, crowds, finances etc) which will be also be moderated (partially through so many different contributors). This will be far more accurate than your guess using crowds.

Nice conspiracy theory as well about FM database, have you had a look at it and doesn't give the answer you want. Funnily enough some clubs have used that data as a starting point to look at players.

Probably is tbf, can't be much worse. Some of the crap players we've let go have been like Messi up there.

 

[Marked Ox]

Probably is tbf, can't be much worse. Some of the crap players we've let go have been like Messi up there.

I've put it in my edited previous post but this I think makes the point on the quality of the Scottish Championship quite succinctly:

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/english-clubs-to-be-invited-to-play-in-irn-bru-cup-1-4749563

Note that it is NL clubs invited (and not even full time clubs) not Football League clubs.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

I've put it in my edited previous post but this I think makes the point on the quality of the Scottish Championship quite succinctly:

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/english-clubs-to-be-invited-to-play-in-irn-bru-cup-1-4749563

Note that it is NL clubs invited (and not even full time clubs) not Football League clubs.

It'll be good I suppose for
Boreham Wood and Sutton United to get a few easy wins I suppose to build up their confidence. Football League clubs would walk over them so I don't blame them, it'd look embarrassing.

 

[St. Juste]

You really doth protest too much.

Your assertion of using crowds is ridiculous. Another further example to make the point is the Indian Super League, with the average crowds being over 5 times bigger than the Scottish Championship so it must be 5 times better in quality.

At least the Football Manager database looks at data across different areas (ie. Facilities, Players, crowds, finances etc) which will be also be moderated (partially through so many different contributors). This will be far more accurate than your guess using crowds.

Nice conspiracy theory as well about FM database, have you had a look at it and doesn't give the answer you want. Funnily enough some clubs have used that data as a starting point to look at players.

It appears the SPFL agree with the assessment of the Scottish Championship by everybody but you:

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/english-clubs-to-be-invited-to-play-in-irn-bru-cup-1-4749563

It isn't ridiculous at all, it is one of the many flawed factors of comparing the leagues from two respective nations. You are quite literally proposing the database of a computer game as an alternative. Which may be useful in some respects, but is in itself horribly flawed.

As for a conspiracy theory - you think businesses selling products is a conspiracy theory? Really? The FM research on Scottish football is actually quite good, the UK is a far more important market to them than Gambia in West Africa so they invest more time in researching it. Nothing conspiratorial about it.

I'd have no idea how to compare the Scottish Championship to Indian football, it would be an almost impossible and a totally pointless exercise I would think.

And you, and the other gentleman, seem to think you have found gold dust with that particular article but the cup plays the same role in Scotland as the Carabao cup does in England. So why weren't League Two teams invited? Probably because they are already participating in said Carabao Cup. So, you think it's a slam dunk but it's actually a horrible miss. No luck.

Might be interesting to see how they get on, the rampant Welsh champions were swept aside with ease.

Probably is tbf, can't be much worse. Some of the crap players we've let go have been like Messi up there.

Like Mooy going to England, then.

 

[Vic Rattlehead]

He spoke to Barnsley, and turned down the opportunity of speaking to them further. As to whether or not he was actually offered the job, there is a long and very boring discussion about this. Who cares? He definitely turned the chance of speaking to them further.

It isn't ridiculous at all, it is one of the many flawed factors of comparing the leagues from two respective nations. You are quite literally proposing the database of a computer game as an alternative. Which may be useful in some respects, but is in itself horribly flawed.

As for a conspiracy theory - you think businesses selling products is a conspiracy theory? Really? The FM research on Scottish football is actually quite good, the UK is a far more important market to them than Gambia in West Africa so they invest more time in researching it. Nothing conspiratorial about it.

I'd have no idea how to compare the Scottish Championship to Indian football, it would almost impossible and a totally pointless exercise I would think.

And you, and the other gentleman, seem to think you have found gold dust with that particular article but the cup plays the same role in Scotland as the Carabao cup does in England. So why weren't League Two teams invited? Probably because they are already participating in said Carabao Cup. So, you think it's a slam dunk but it's actually a horrible miss. No luck.

Might be interesting to see how they get on, the rampant Welsh champions were swept aside with ease.

Didn't the Welsh champions get to the semi final? Further than the winners of the Scottish championship?

Do we know that League Two clubs were ever approached? Seems unlikely as they are involved in a tournament of a higher standard and would have turn down the invite in any case.

 

[St. Juste]

And the final was contested by....two teams from the Scottish Championship.

When we played the Welsh Champions last year, despite having our worst season of all time, we hammered them 4-1.

As for your second question, I'd find it incredibly unlikely they were approached, given there is already a cup fulfilling an identical purpose for the Championship and Leagues One and Two.

The Scottish equivalent is inviting teams from Ireland and Wales, as well as Colt teams from the Premiership. Quite a novel idea, even if it continues to be dominated by the illustrious Scottish Championship.

 

[Marked Ox]

It isn't ridiculous at all, it is one of the many flawed factors of comparing the leagues from two respective nations. You are quite literally proposing the database of a computer game as an alternative. Which may be useful in some respects, but is in itself horribly flawed.

As for a conspiracy theory - you think businesses selling products is a conspiracy theory? Really? The FM research on Scottish football is actually quite good, the UK is a far more important market to them than Gambia in West Africa so they invest more time in researching it. Nothing conspiratorial about it.

I'd have no idea how to compare the Scottish Championship to Indian football, it would be an almost impossible and a totally pointless exercise I would think.

And you, and the other gentleman, seem to think you have found gold dust with that particular article but the cup plays the same role in Scotland as the Carabao cup does in England. So why weren't League Two teams invited? Probably because they are already participating in said Carabao Cup. So, you think it's a slam dunk but it's actually a horrible miss. No luck.

Might be interesting to see how they get on, the rampant Welsh champions were swept aside with ease.



Like Mooy going to England, then.

Brilliant, just brilliant. You can't compare the Scottish Championship to the Indian Super League using crowds as the factor but you can the English and Scottish Leagues based on using crowds as the factor. Please tell me you are a parody account?

And still your League Officials clearly see that the NL and the Scottish Championship are on a par whether you like it or not.

 

[St. Juste]

Brilliant, just brilliant. You can't compare the Scottish Championship to the Indian Super League using crowds as the factor but you can the English and Scottish Leagues based on using crowds as the factor. Please tell me you are a parody account?

And still your League Officials clearly see that the NL and the Scottish Championship are on a par whether you like it or not.

You're not following this at all, are you? My position is that comparing the leagues is a bit of a futile and pointless excercise.

If you must do it (as was originally done in this thread) there are a limited number of flawed factors you can consider and of course attendance is one.

Attendance equals gate money, equals revenue. This thread is a lot stronger in the UK where ticket prices are similar than India where they won't be. Nevertheless, double the tickets doesn't mean double the standard - that's just nonsense.

So is Indian football better than the Scottish Championship? On balance, probably, but it's an incredibly difficult thing to measure.

Our league officials do not clearly see that at all (hence why they didn't say it), it doesn't apply to the other nations and it doesn't apply to the colt teams.

I can't make it any similar - League Two (and League One) already have that cup equivalent.

So, it was probably a mistake for it to be brought up - and some people are a bit stuck now.

 

[Marked Ox]

You're not following this at all, are you? My position is that comparing the leagues is a bit of a futile and pointless excercise.

If you must do it (as was originally done in this thread) there are a limited number of flawed factors you can consider and of course attendance is one.

Attendance equals gate money, equals revenue. This thread is a lot stronger in the UK where ticket prices are similar than India where they won't be. Nevertheless, double the tickets doesn't mean double the standard - that's just nonsense.

So is Indian football better than the Scottish Championship? On balance, probably, but it's an incredibly difficult thing to measure.

Our league officials do not clearly see that at all (hence why they didn't say it), it doesn't apply to the other nations and it doesn't apply to the colt teams.

I can't make it any similar - League Two (and League One) already have that cup equivalent.

So, it was probably a mistake for it to be brought up - and some people are a bit stuck now.

So why are you trying to claim St Mirren are equivalent to L2 then as comparison is equally as futile and pointless.

You aren't grasping that using only 1 measure to compare is fundamentally flawed especially when it isn't even involving the product on the pitch (ie. the players). Hence why the FM database (and still iffy but probably the most comprehensive look currently) is better than your measure as it uses multiple data points and will be moderated by input from many people.

And I'm pretty certain that the Scottish Championship is of a higher standard than the Indian Super League.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

Do we become a national league sized club purely because Brechin fluked a playoff then didn't win a game all season? Don't be ridiculous.

No. That is why I used average figures rather than figures for one club. You do know how averages work, don't you?

Sunderland have hired a manager of a club who wouldn't look out of place in League 1 or League 2 in terms of infrastructure, players or attendances. Don't know why you can't grasp this.

They also wouldn't look out of place in the National League. Don't know why you can't grasp this.

No matter how many times you say some tinpot team is "comfortably L2 standard" it doesn't make it true and it doesn't convince anyone and honestly you make enough factual errors that I can just keep going.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

So why weren't League Two teams invited? Probably because they are already participating in said Carabao Cup. So, you think it's a slam dunk but it's actually a horrible miss. No luck.

"Probably"

"Probably" the l2 sides played enough NL teams in pre season. Sounds like you got dunked on.

 

[WilsdenBantam]

Brilliant, just brilliant. You can't compare the Scottish Championship to the Indian Super League using crowds as the factor but you can the English and Scottish Leagues based on using crowds as the factor. Please tell me you are a parody account?

And still your League Officials clearly see that the NL and the Scottish Championship are on a par whether you like it or not.

He probably is or just deluded, I'm not sure he even knows the point he's trying to make anymore, he'll want the last word though I just gave up that'd be my advice to you.

 

[rudebwoyben]

So, what sort of manager is Jack Ross?

 

[THE LAST WALTZ]

So, what sort of manager is Jack Ross?

Somewhere between National League and Champions League standard I believe.

 

[SuperKev]

I think he'll do well here. We're now debt free and he'll have a big budget to work with. He must think he's in Dreamland getting a job at what is to all intents and purposes a Premier League club with new and ambitious owners. No offence to Scotland but Celtic aside Sunderland dwarf all the other clubs up there.

 

[Marked Ox]

I think he'll do well here. We're now debt free and he'll have a big budget to work with. He must think he's in Dreamland getting a job at what is to all intents and purposes a Premier League club with new and ambitious owners. No offence to Scotland but Celtic aside Sunderland dwarf all the other clubs up there.

Nah, you'll be on a par with St Mirren.

 

[PuB]

We all dream of being as big as St Mirren these days, something to hope for at least.

 

[Bobbin']

I think he'll do well here. We're now debt free and he'll have a big budget to work with. He must think he's in Dreamland getting a job at what is to all intents and purposes a Premier League club with new and ambitious owners. No offence to Scotland but Celtic aside* Sunderland dwarf all the other clubs up there.

*and Rangers