The Coalition of Expensive Chaos

[Techno Natch]

No he studied somewhere else and didn't pass the course or take any exams.

 

[blade1889]

He passed the university of life. Erm...

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

just gotta pull yourself up onto your wheelchair by your bootstraps

 

[Dave-Vale]

No he studied somewhere else and didn't pass the course or take any exams.

And then married into wealth. Fuck, I hate that little prick. He even looks like a fucking creep.

 

[Dave-Vale]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...the-transcript-of-the-interview-a6684161.html

"That isn't really an answer is it?"

 

[.V.]

I see that the government are introducing starter homes, whilst also removing the condition that new developments have to include low cost rental homes, ie social housing. Shelter seem to think that these starter homes will only be affordable to people earning £50k+ a year. What a bunch of utter c***.

 

[Red]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...o-work-their-way-out-of-poverty-a6683361.html

Is this guy for real?

Of all the Tories I hate, he is top my list. I don't care if anyone criticises me for this but if someone murdered him I'd be pleased.

 

[Red]

I see that the government are introducing starter homes, whilst also removing the condition that new developments have to include low cost rental homes, ie social housing. Shelter seem to think that these starter homes will only be affordable to people earning £50k+ a year. What a bunch of utter c***.

Yeah, they will. One of the Tories yesterday said something like we want a buyer generation , not a renter generation. Fine, if you can afford it, fuck off if you can't.

They couldn't demonstrate their contempt for people on low incomes any clearer. They're basically saying we're not building social housing, so you either rent from a private landlord or buy.

It's their whole ideology towards welfare that is ideologically at odds with us. They pretend that like us they believe welfare is there to help people in times of need while they get back on their feet, but what really underpins their ideology is a deep-rooted conviction that most people on benefit are abusing the system.

 

[blade1889]

Whatever your political persuasion this has to make you want to vomit? Labour would probably be just as bad, the 'cheeky nandos' lift selfie http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/t...e-conference?utm_term=.nxa1NPZJbX#.dwvgLEeWDJ

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The state should just become a property developer itself. It makes money in the long run and land and construction is far too expensive in the UK to leave it to the private sector.

 

[Red]

Whatever your political persuasion this has to make you want to vomit? Labour would probably be just as bad, the 'cheeky nandos' lift selfie http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/t...e-conference?utm_term=.nxa1NPZJbX#.dwvgLEeWDJ

Awful and yes Labour would just be as bad. Jim Davidson a comedy legend?

 

[Hooped Wizard]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...o-work-their-way-out-of-poverty-a6683361.html

Is this guy for real?

He is right though.

The correct way to get out of poverty is to work, plenty of disabled people work. It isn't impossible.

 

[.V.]

He is right though.

The correct way to get out of poverty is to work, plenty of disabled people work. It isn't impossible.

I'll indulge the troll I guess.

If work is a way out of poverty, why are we paying Working Tax Credits to boost people's income?

 

[Hooped Wizard]

I'll indulge the troll I guess.

If work is a way out of poverty, why are we paying Working Tax Credits to boost people's income?

But the more you work the more chance you have of not needing to worry about losing some money to tax credits.

Of course we should be trying to get disabled people into work, there isn't a logical reason why we'd want to keep them couped up at home.

What a nonsensical, stupid argument. I'm the troll apparently...

 

[SUTSS]

But the more you work the more chance you have of not needing to worry about losing some money to tax credits.

Of course we should be trying to get disabled people into work, there isn't a logical reason why we'd want to keep them couped up at home.

What a nonsensical, stupid argument. I'm the troll apparently...

Not quite as simple at this though is it?

 

[Hooped Wizard]

Not quite as simple at this though is it?

Well it kind of is...because the more money you get the less tax credits will effect you.

Listen I'm not having a go at people who are genuinely ill who can't work or even disabled people who could work but choose not to. What I don't understand is why people are having a go at IDS for trying to get disabled people in work. A lot would be very happy to get work.

 

[SUTSS]

But you can work for 40+ hours on minimum wage and still be poor.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

But you can work for 40+ hours on minimum wage and still be poor.

Yes.
I didn't bring the tax credits up I was merely suggesting that getting disabled people in work is fantastic. Also, are you presuming disabled people would be mostly receiving minimum wage jobs?

 

[SUTSS]

No. I was just pulling you up on the false hood that hard work = more money.

If we can find a way to fully integrate the disabled into the work place then great. I don't think there is a genuine workable strategy by IDS.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

No. I was just pulling you up on the false hood that hard work = more money.

If we can find a way to fully integrate the disabled into the work place then great. I don't think there is a genuine workable strategy by IDS.

The majority are integrated, I no of this first hand.

And I was saying get a job = more money which is nearly always the case is it not?

 

[Dave-Vale]

Well it kind of is...because the more money you get the less tax credits will effect you.

Listen I'm not having a go at people who are genuinely ill who can't work or even disabled people who could work but choose not to. What I don't understand is why people are having a go at IDS for trying to get disabled people in work. A lot would be very happy to get work.

I agree that it more should be done to help disabled people get into work. It is more the manner in which IDS puts his point across. It is also the fact that a significant number of people died within 6 months of being declared 'fit for work' by the private companies given the contracts to 'test' them.

 

[Techno Natch]

Well it kind of is...because the more money you get the less tax credits will effect you.

Listen I'm not having a go at people who are genuinely ill who can't work or even disabled people who could work but choose not to. What I don't understand is why people are having a go at IDS for trying to get disabled people in work. A lot would be very happy to get work.

Because his government have not put anything in place to help disabled people to get into work and seem to think that it has more to do with the fact that they earn to much in benefits so the drive to work isn't there. They even cut their commitment to adapting workplaces six hours after the election .

His government have also seen cuts to social care at a local area which means that
people face having less support to find work.

There are some really good schemes out there but very few introduced by the government and many more closed by them in my experience.

Im interested in where you've seen these people being intergrated because my experience is very different.

 

[Red]

Well it kind of is...because the more money you get the less tax credits will effect you.

Listen I'm not having a go at people who are genuinely ill who can't work or even disabled people who could work but choose not to. What I don't understand is why people are having a go at IDS for trying to get disabled people in work. A lot would be very happy to get work.

So someone on the minimum wage should work longer hours and consequently make their work/life balance worse just so the government don't have to pay tax credits. Here's a novel idea - how about paying people a proper liveable wage to negate the need for tax credits? I'm not talking about £7.50 an hour either, that is not enough to cover the shortfall of losing tax credits. Also, why have incremental minimum wages? This government is still flirting with the idea of removing housing benefit for people under 25. If that came into being they lose their housing benefit and tax credits. How is that making work pay? How does that incentivise people to work? It doesn't.

Regarding disabled people, a lot of them were working in Remploy across the country until the Tories closed them all down. They closed them down because they said there are better ways to help disabled people into work and we now see what that is - cut their benefits. Remploy might have not been ideal for all disabled people, but it was for many of them because work isn't just about earning money. The government clearly has no desire to make it easier for disabled people to find work - as Natch said they cut their comittment to funding workplace adaptations, leaving to employers or charities to fund. Many employers can't afford adaptations, others privately don't want disabled people because they fear it will inhibit productivity. You and the Tories are ignoring all these real actual factors and your only answer is cut their benefits. That is a fucked up way of dealing with things. This rhetoric about wanting to help disabled people is just bollocks

 

[Dave-Vale]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/07/owen-jones-tory-conservative-conference-ruling-smug

Enjoyed this from Owen Jones. Not as scathing as you might think, either.

 

[Aber gas]

So someone on the minimum wage should work longer hours and consequently make their work/life balance worse just so the government don't have to pay tax credits. Here's a novel idea - how about paying people a proper liveable wage to negate the need for tax credits? I'm not talking about £7.50 an hour either, that is not enough to cover the shortfall of losing tax credits. Also, why have incremental minimum wages? This government is still flirting with the idea of removing housing benefit for people under 25. If that came into being they lose their housing benefit and tax credits. How is that making work pay? How does that incentivise people to work? It doesn't.

Regarding disabled people, a lot of them were working in Remploy across the country until the Tories closed them all down. They closed them down because they said there are better ways to help disabled people into work and we now see what that is - cut their benefits. Remploy might have not been ideal for all disabled people, but it was for many of them because work isn't just about earning money. The government clearly has no desire to make it easier for disabled people to find work - as Natch said they cut their comittment to funding workplace adaptations, leaving to employers or charities to fund. Many employers can't afford adaptations, others privately don't want disabled people because they fear it will inhibit productivity. You and the Tories are ignoring all these real actual factors and your only answer is cut their benefits. That is a fucked up way of dealing with things. This rhetoric about wanting to help disabled people is just bollocks

you are absolutely right, there is no real commitment to " get people back to work" the Tory government and to lesser extent the previous labour regime have systemically dismantled assistance for disabled people in the workplace whilst cutting the benefits safety net.
As you point out tax credits are vital for a lot of family's and make the difference between being able to run a home or falling into an unmanageable cycle of debt and poverty. The current Tory government are getting away with excesses that would have made thatcher blush.

 

[silkyman]

Yeah, they will. One of the Tories yesterday said something like we want a buyer generation , not a renter generation. Fine, if you can afford it, fuck off if you can't.

They couldn't demonstrate their contempt for people on low incomes any clearer. They're basically saying we're not building social housing, so you either rent from a private landlord or buy.

It's their whole ideology towards welfare that is ideologically at odds with us. They pretend that like us they believe welfare is there to help people in times of need while they get back on their feet, but what really underpins their ideology is a deep-rooted conviction that most people on benefit are abusing the system.

There's a key line, which the tories are on one side of and the left are on the other. It's down to where your fear lies.

The right's attitude is fear that someone who is undeserving will get something for nothing. The left fear that people who are deserving are missing out.

So the right would rather have 10 people suffering to prevent one person milking the system while the left are happy(happier, at least) to take the one person hit to the benefit of the 10.

It's similar with the refugee/migrant situation. Rather leave them all to suffer than let refugees in and risk some of them being 'only' economic migrants.

 

[mowgli]

Let's get one thing straight here - Not everyone on disability benefit gets a lot of money. I was on £101 a week to pay for gas,electric,water,food,clothes and council tax,i shouldn't be paying any council tax according to Cameron but Somerset is a Tory council who decided to make thepoorest pay it rather than put it up for those who can afford it. I'm lucky that i was so angry with my treatment at the hands of the DWP i went to see my MP who took up my case after my GP wrote to her and she won my appeals for me,now that cost the government money as they had to pay me a years back pay i was entitled to.If anyone finds themselves in the situation i was in for god's sake go and see your MP they are paid to represent us and help with constituents problems. The DWP soon backed down when Tessa Munt contacted them on my behalf so will most likely do so for anyone who takes the steps i did,don't let the cheating bastards shit on you just fight back,good luck if you're battling for what you're entitled to just to live a decent life.

 

[Aber gas]

Let's get one thing straight here - Not everyone on disability benefit gets a lot of money. I was on £101 a week to pay for gas,electric,water,food,clothes and council tax,i shouldn't be paying any council tax according to Cameron but Somerset is a Tory council who decided to make thepoorest pay it rather than put it up for those who can afford it. I'm lucky that i was so angry with my treatment at the hands of the DWP i went to see my MP who took up my case after my GP wrote to her and she won my appeals for me,now that cost the government money as they had to pay me a years back pay i was entitled to.If anyone finds themselves in the situation i was in for god's sake go and see your MP they are paid to represent us and help with constituents problems. The DWP soon backed down when Tessa Munt contacted them on my behalf so will most likely do so for anyone who takes the steps i did,don't let the cheating bastards shit on you just fight back,good luck if you're battling for what you're entitled to just to live a decent life.

Good for you mowgs, I'd imagine a lot of people hav'nt got the drive or the knowledge to fight back against their poor treatment. It must have been stressful especially if you weren't in the best of health.
It's disgusting that disabled people have to fight that hard for what they are entitled to.

 

[mowgli]

Good for you mowgs, I'd imagine a lot of people hav'nt got the drive or the knowledge to fight back against their poor treatment. It must have been stressful especially if you weren't in the best of health.
It's disgusting that disabled people have to fight that hard for what they are entitled to.

Too be honest mate it just popped into my head one day and thankfully i acted upon it. I advised 2 other people with the same problems i had to go and see Tessa Munt in Wells and she won their appeals as well just before she lost her seat to a Tory in May. I have the letter on House Of Commons headed paper from her telling me my appeals were succesful framed and hung on my bathroom wall.

 

[Veggie Legs]

The perils of quoting someone out of context.