The Coalition of Expensive Chaos

[Red]

It's pissing me right off that all the Tories who are defending the cut in tax credits by arguing that wages will go up will not face up to the fact that 7 odd £ per hour will not make up the shortfall for the loss.

 

[Dave-Vale]

I would prefer it if they were honest about it rather than Cameron selling it as a 'package' with this 'living wage' of £9.50 an hour fantasy.

Corbyn is getting right under his skin.

Corbyn - The PM solemnly declared that he wouldn't cut tax credits

*heckle*

Corbyn - YES, I am very solemn thank you.

 

[pride_of_notts]

Cameron using the word 'delighted' when describing how he feels about taking thousands of pounds a year away from working, poor families. Says it all.

I think the quote "Lower than vermin" is pretty accurate both describing the Tories and Cameron comments.

 

[HertsWolf]

What I quite like about Corbyn is that he really cannot be credibly attacked by Call Me Dave for the sins of Blair or Brown. Cameron (and Clegg) is politically closer to them than Jezza.

Corbyn is like a vamped up Michael Foot without the shuffle. Well, he's borrowing Foot's clothes. Or a Kinnock with substance.
I admit I am very disappointed, though, to find that a decent man with solid principles (many of which I disagree with) has become a politician. Most confusing.

 

[blade1889]

Black or blue?

 

[Aber gas]

What I quite like about Corbyn is that he really cannot be credibly attacked by Call Me Dave for the sins of Blair or Brown. Cameron (and Clegg) is politically closer to them than Jezza.

Corbyn is like a vamped up Michael Foot without the shuffle. Well, he's borrowing Foot's clothes. Or a Kinnock with substance.
I admit I am very disappointed, though, to find that a decent man with solid principles (many of which I disagree with) has become a politician. Most confusing.

Which principals do you disagree with Herts ? I only ask because most of your posts are broadly in agreement with corbyn's ideas.

 

[HertsWolf]

Which principals do you disagree with Herts ? I only ask because most of your posts are broadly in agreement with corbyn's ideas.

Mainly that he's a lifelong Bristol City fan.
More seriously, some of his closeness to Republican interests, refusing to sing the National Anthem, things like that...nothing huge, I guess....

 

[Aber gas]

Mainly that he's a lifelong Bristol City fan.
More seriously, some of his closeness to Republican interests, refusing to sing the National Anthem, things like that...nothing huge, I guess....

City fan? I'm going to have to reassess

 

[blade1889]

Mainly that he's a lifelong Bristol City fan.
More seriously, some of his closeness to Republican interests, refusing to sing the National Anthem, things like that...nothing huge, I guess....

I didn't think you supported the monarchy? So why would you want him to sing 'god save the queen'?

 

[.V.]

HertsWolf will hate me then; I'm a republican who doesn't sing the anthem AND I'm a Bristol City fan.

 

[Aber gas]

HertsWolf will hate me then; I'm a republican who doesn't sing the anthem AND I'm a Bristol City fan.

Let's have the truth v. Are you corbyn?

 

[HertsWolf]

I didn't think you supported the monarchy? So why would you want him to sing 'god save the queen'?

I'm not against the monarchy. Not particularly. I don't like some of the privileges they have, and the endless sycophantic whining of the media about them. I'd like him to sing it because it's our National Anthem. If 15,000-odd Stoke City fans can sing Delilah without bothering too much about the words, then Jezza can manage to ask that a deity (of his choice) "save" an elderly woman from Berkshire.

HertsWolf will hate me then; I'm a republican who doesn't sing the anthem AND I'm a Bristol City fan.

I don't hate anyone. Some of my family are republicans, others don't even know the words of the anthem.

Black or blue?

Successive British governments (Tory, Labour, Lib Dem) have all nobly supported investment bankers and British arms manufacturers but have consistently failed to support, directly or indirectly, the British steel industry, the British car industry, the British textile industry, the British chemical industry, the British bus and truck building industry, the British aircraft industry, the British toy manufacturing industry, the British metals processing industry, the British light and heavy manufacturing industry, the British glass-making industry, the British ceramics industry, the British tyre industry, the British power engineering industry, the British furniture industry, British utilities or British public transport beyond getting Price Andrew into a pair of underpants and a suit in the morning and sending him to foreign trade-fairs with a small flag and an empty briefcase.

Meanwhile, EVERY (and fuck it, I mean E.V.E.R.Y.....Google it if you have a problem with the definition of "every") other developed nation on the planet has both directly and indirectly shepherded their industries, their services and their interests, carefully nodding seriously at trade laws and pacts. How many Chinese nuclear power stations are built by us? How many French, German or US electric, water, sewage, transport or rail companies are owned by British interests?

We have little left other than the financial services sector (concentrated in 800 square metres of Docklands), a Formula One industry in Northamptonshire, Harris Tweed, 80,000 charity shops, JCBs and Dyson. Absolutely fucking brilliant, successive, greasy, unpleasant, soundbite-driven fucking political flotsam and jetsam, PMs and elected representatives.

Edit: Apologies. Missed the British motorbike industry, British helicopter industry, British bicycle industry, the British hosiery industry, the British leather industry, the British shoe industry, the British computer industry, the British hat manufacturing industry, British pen making industry, the British phone making industry, and the British confectionery manufacturing industry. They've all gone too.

 

[Red]

City fan? I'm going to have to reassess

Yeah, the fucking commie.

 

[Dave-Vale]

Corbyn shouldn't sing the anthem as it goes against everything he stands for. I commend him for sticking to his principles and not bowing to pressure from the party/public/media.

I imagine he is probably an atheist so why in the world would he sing a silly, glorified, Christian hymn?

 

[Red]

I like how he wears scruffy looking jackets and doesn't bother with a tie at some formal events. At qt yesterday he wore a tie but it was all twisted. He strikes me as being a man who has disdain for wearing formal clothes and I like that.

 

[Aber gas]

I like how he wears scruffy looking jackets and doesn't bother with a tie at some formal events. At qt yesterday he wore a tie but it was all twisted. He strikes me as being a man who has disdain for wearing formal clothes and I like that.

I honestly don't think he gives a shit about what clothes he wears. He just wants to get on with his job. Can you imagine his face when some no-mark party official tells him he needs a stylist?

 

[HertsWolf]

Corbyn shouldn't sing the anthem as it goes against everything he stands for. I commend him for sticking to his principles and not bowing to pressure from the party/public/media.

I imagine he is probably an atheist so why in the world would he sing a silly, glorified, Christian hymn?

Two recent interviews with Corbyn, below. He doesn't talk about his faith (why should he?) but he does talk about the value of faith communities. I hate it when politicians become sensitised to the wellbeing of ordinary people. However, I do find the phrase 'Christians on the Left' disconcerting. Is there a left and a right in Christianity? (Discuss. 75 marks)

"I'm not anti-religious at all. Not at all. And I probably go to more religious services than most people who are very strong believers. I go to churches, I go to mosques, I go to temples, I go to synagogues. I find religion very interesting. I find the power of faith very interesting. I have friends who are very strongly atheist and wouldn't have anything to do with any faith; but I take a much more relaxed view of it. I think the faith community offers and does a great deal for people. There doesn't have to be wars about religion, there has to be honesty about religion. We have much more in common than separates us."

and

**"I believe faith communities are essential allies in the struggle for a better Britain. I want to create a society embedded in values of fairness and equality, empathy and solidarity. I want a society that better enables us all to realise the innate goodness
inherent in our nature. I know this aspiration is shared as deeply within faith communities. Last year 13 million of our fellow citizens were living in poverty. With the worst of Tory austerity yet to come, that figure is only set to rise.

I know that up and down the country there are people of all faiths and none, on the front line of welfare reform, bearing witness to the pain this government is inflicting on the some of our poorest communities. I want to see more faith leaders publicly challenge this injustice. In speaking out last year against the impact of welfare cuts, the twenty-six Church of England Bishops were standing up for those abandoned by the politicians who should be protecting them. We need unity to stop the damage this government is wrecking and I will stand shoulder to shoulder with all faith leaders to that end. I believe it is wrong that the poorest are being made to pay for an economic crisis that is the responsibility of the richest.

The 'Truth and Lies about Poverty' report produced by the Baptist Union, Methodist Church, Church of Scotland and United Reformed Church was an excellent contribution towards challenging the myth that poverty primarily stems from laziness or poor personal choices. I believe it is wrong too that the language of ‘benefit scroungers’ which accompanies austerity is breeding intolerance and indifference to the suffering of others. It is an outrage that over 2,300 people have died after their Work Capability Assessment told them they should start looking for work. When we permit the bullying of the poor and immigrants, it encourages bullies everywhere. A new study claims our children are among them the unhappiest in the world, with widespread bullying a major culprit. Should we be surprised?

Christians on the Left call on us all to ‘love the poor, defend the widow, the refugee and the orphan and stand against injustice - large or small’. These values are at the heart of the Labour party and ones I share a deep commitment to. I want to help create a society that strives to leave no one behind, society more socially conscious and responsible, not one in thrall to rampant materialism and selfish individualism. I look forward to working with Christians on the Left, and other faith communities, towards that end."

**Apologies for formatting of the second piece. I really can't be arsed to remove the obvious extra white space.

 

[Aber gas]

In my own experiences faith and church groups have been absolutely vital in dealing with both homelessness and poverty. I volunteer with charities and agencies ( shelter, food banks etc) and the truth is that without the support of faith groups even these fragile safety nets would seriously struggle leaving thousands of destitute people even more vulnerable than they currently are. I have very little faith myself and there are sections and parts of organised religion that I abhor but the great majority of people on the frontline who have faith ( in my own experience ) are there to help desperate people with no other agenda. I also believe that it shames our wealthy nation that the well being of our most vulnerable falls on a coalition of faith groups, charities and volunteers but this is the sad reality and I'm fucking thankful that they are there.

 

[Dave-Vale]

Some interesting comments there. The way I see that though is he's saying whilst he finds religion interesting and doesn't have a problem with it, he doesn't follow any faith in particular. I agree that we should be using the basis of religion to make society better for everybody, but that will never happen.

In other news, Daddy made more money than ever last year thanks to that nice tax break. Absolutely criminal.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/george-osbornes-dad-could-50000-6686515#ICID=FB_mirror_main

 

[HertsWolf]

In my own experiences faith and church groups have been absolutely vital in dealing with both homelessness and poverty. I volunteer with charities and agencies ( shelter, food banks etc) and the truth is that without the support of faith groups even these fragile safety nets would seriously struggle leaving thousands of destitute people even more vulnerable than they currently are. I have very little faith myself and there are sections and parts of organised religion that I abhor but the great majority of people on the frontline who have faith ( in my own experience ) are there to help desperate people with no other agenda. I also believe that it shames our wealthy nation that the well being of our most vulnerable falls on a coalition of faith groups, charities and volunteers but this is the sad reality and I'm fucking thankful that they are there.

There was a documentary about homeless people a few months back (it featured a number of kids and young people from Bristol), one of them said specifically...."It's always the Christians who help you".
In most towns and cities across the country it falls mainly upon faith-based groups to work with those most in need. And with no agenda other than to help.
My faith (excuse the pun) in faith is being strengthened, while my opinion of politicians, business (big and small) and civil servants is plummeting to a level that Jacques Cousteau would struggle to explore.

 

[silkyman]

While it's clear that Christian based charities do a lot of good for those in need, it doesn't have to be religious to do that. It makes me uncomfortable as an atheist that 'doing good' and 'faith' should be so intertwined in anyone's mind. Us Godless heathens can be every bit, and often more, charitable. Good people should be able to do good things without the blanket of religion. I do.

The main reason religious groups have the ability to do that good is infrastructure as much as anything. Secular organisations don't have the buildings available as readily for a start. There's loads of church halls that have been around for centuries. No one's built an atheist hall yet, because 'we're' not actually an organisation!

I donate to a food bank which is run by a church because that's the one that is here locally. Religion shouldn't come into it.

 

[mowgli]

I pass a young lad every morning sleeping in a shop doorway in Wells, i can't afford to give much money away but if he's awake i buy him a coffee. It's not much i know but if everyone who passed a homeless person bought them a hot drink at least it's something. I can't believe in this day and age there are so many homeless people in this country some of who are ex soldiers who have been abandoned by this government. Every town must have empty derelict homes that could be given to those in need but alas it won't happen.

 

[Techno Natch]

In my own experiences faith and church groups have been absolutely vital in dealing with both homelessness and poverty. I volunteer with charities and agencies ( shelter, food banks etc) and the truth is that without the support of faith groups even these fragile safety nets would seriously struggle leaving thousands of destitute people even more vulnerable than they currently are. I have very little faith myself and there are sections and parts of organised religion that I abhor but the great majority of people on the frontline who have faith ( in my own experience ) are there to help desperate people with no other agenda. I also believe that it shames our wealthy nation that the well being of our most vulnerable falls on a coalition of faith groups, charities and volunteers but this is the sad reality and I'm fucking thankful that they are there.

Yeah can only back this up. We've done a couple of charity things for the homeless and the churches are always happy to help, they also do the soup runs here etc if I remember correctly. It is a good recruiting tool for them mind, many of the people we met through one of the churches had been picked up and basically converted from the street......

 

[silkyman]

Some interesting comments there. The way I see that though is he's saying whilst he finds religion interesting and doesn't have a problem with it, he doesn't follow any faith in particular. I agree that we should be using the basis of religion to make society better for everybody, but that will never happen.

In other news, Daddy made more money than ever last year thanks to that nice tax break. Absolutely criminal.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/george-osbornes-dad-could-50000-6686515#ICID=FB_mirror_main

The real trick now is to lump him in with 49 other poor families who are £900 worse off each, and proudly proclaim that this randomly selected sample is 'on average £100 a year better off'

 

[Aber gas]

Yeah can only back this up. We've done a couple of charity things for the homeless and the churches are always happy to help, they also do the soup runs here etc if I remember correctly. It is a good recruiting tool for them mind, many of the people we met through one of the churches had been picked up and basically converted from the street......

There is some converting going on. I'm not so naive to believe otherwise but there is a wide spectrum of religious groups active and I've not seen the aggressive recruiting here that I've seen elsewhere ( Jesus army, freedom church etc) probably because I try and steer clear of the evangelist groups mind.

 

[blade1889]

While it's clear that Christian based charities do a lot of good for those in need, it doesn't have to be religious to do that. It makes me uncomfortable as an atheist that 'doing good' and 'faith' should be so intertwined in anyone's mind. Us Godless heathens can be every bit, and often more, charitable. Good people should be able to do good things without the blanket of religion. I do.

The main reason religious groups have the ability to do that good is infrastructure as much as anything. Secular organisations don't have the buildings available as readily for a start. There's loads of church halls that have been around for centuries. No one's built an atheist hall yet, because 'we're' not actually an organisation!

I donate to a food bank which is run by a church because that's the one that is here locally. Religion shouldn't come into it.

This really, I've done a fair amount of volunteering for the elderly and learning difficulties which haven't been to do with religion but the elderly place shut down and the LD was struggling at the time I left for University. The main issues being funding for a hall to use and relying on donations that just aren't there. (the elderly was similar to a care home and government run so appreciate it isn't the same).

Religion does do a lot of good, I cant deny that and there is a lot we can learn from them. I have to disagree with Herts about my faith being strengthened in them though as for all the good they do the church still attempts to hold us back in certain social aspects that I'm not about to forgive.

Ps thanks Herts, I've just googled the word every and added it into my vocabulary

 

[Dave-Vale]

Throughout history religion has done nothing but try to hinder scientific/human progression.

Think this is for another thread though.

 

[silkyman]

It's similar to the 'where do atheists get their morals from' shit. When I do good things, it's because I want to do right by other people, not because I think it will help me avoid eternal damnation.

But yeah, not for this thread. Or any thread, because I've never seen that argument go anything other than badly.

 

[Aber gas]

It's similar to the 'where do atheists get their morals from' shit. When I do good things, it's because I want to do right by other people, not because I think it will help me avoid eternal damnation.

But yeah, not for this thread. Or any thread, because I've never seen that argument go anything other than badly.

I'm not arguing that secular groups don't do great things. I'm not religious myself and it's ridiculous that care and help for the poorest is left to the church but they do form a massive part of the safety net now. I

 

[Red]

Yeah, same here mate. They speak out against issues like Tax Credits and didn't 80 odd Bish's write an open letter stating thet they though the 20,000 refugees Camoron is allwoing in isn't enough?