The Coalition of Expensive Chaos

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

The future of our country is so bright.
It's like a version of Mr & Mrs Smith, but would obviously be Mr & Mrs Trump just without the marriage

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...de&spv=xm&ah=9d7f7ab945510a56fa6d37c30b6f1709

https://www.ft.com/content/fde7616a-e6cf-11e6-967b-c88452263daf

I look forward to it.

 

[MJA]

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...de&spv=xm&ah=9d7f7ab945510a56fa6d37c30b6f1709

https://www.ft.com/content/fde7616a-e6cf-11e6-967b-c88452263daf

I look forward to it.

Asking me to subscribe for the FT article but the Economist one hits the nail on the head.
Wonder how the push for Brexit would have been had the EU referendum come after the presidential election in the US

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Asking me to subscribe for the FT article but the Economist one hits the nail on the head.
Wonder how the push for Brexit would have been had the EU referendum come after the presidential election in the US

Google "Donald Trump is a disaster for Brexit FT" and you should be able to access it that way.

 

[johnnytodd]

Remember during the referendum campaign when Turkey was the enemy and we needed to get out NOW because they were getting full membership in 48 seconds?

Nice to see we're such bezzie mates now.

Were not bezzies we want to sell them some guns...........and yes it was one of the reasons i voted out, we have enough muslims over here trying to enforce their barbaric religion.

imo

 

[MJA]

Were not bezzies we want to sell them some guns...........and yes it was one of the reasons i voted out, we have enough muslims over here trying to enforce their barbaric religion.

imo

But Turkey will use those weapons to fight Kurdish forces who are trying to eliminate ISIS. So by selling weaponry to Turkey we are actually assisting ISIS, who are apparently a big reason why immigration is such a hot topic these days.

As for the talk of 'barbaric' religions, is Islam the only religion in the world with an extremist element to it?

 

[johnnytodd]

But Turkey will use those weapons to fight Kurdish forces who are trying to eliminate ISIS. So by selling weaponry to Turkey we are actually assisting ISIS, who are apparently a big reason why immigration is such a hot topic these days.

As for the talk of 'barbaric' religions, is Islam the only religion in the world with an extremist element to it?

Yeah and labour governments of course

 

[Abertawe]

Look at this from back in the day. Know your enemy johnnytodd Carver

 

[johnnytodd]

Look at this from back in the day. Know your enemy johnnytodd Carver

Nah cant be arsed zooming, summarise it taffy?

 

[Abertawe]

 

[Pilgrim Meister]

In my opinion the government need to bring in social care from local councils in order to salvage it. Also bringing social care and the NHS under one roof will mean the burden can be taken off the NHS as currently the NHS is propping up council funded social care

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39187265

Still aiming for equality of results over equality of opportunity I see, though applying it to the justice system might be going several hundred leaps too far...

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39187265

Still aiming for equality of results over equality of opportunity I see, though applying it to the justice system might be going several hundred leaps too far...

Ebeneezer Goode being ignorant and racist again?

"In 1991, statistics regarding how differently BME and white suspects were dealt with in the criminal justice system helped to trigger race training for all full-time judges over a five-year period. Those statistics have not improved. If you are an African-Caribbean man you are 16% more likely to be remanded in custody than if you are white; you are also likely to obtain a custodial sentence of 24 months compared to your white counterpart’s 17 months. This is not because African-Caribbean men commit more serious offences than their white counterparts – these are punishments handed down for the same or similar offences. African-Caribbean men are also subject to receiving immediate custodial sentences with fewer previous convictions than their white counterparts. Our perceptions have become the reality that means 41% of all young people in detention are now from BME communities."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/22/judge-racism-judicial-system-black-communities
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ely-to-be-jailed-for-some-crimes-report-finds
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...568680/bame-disproportionality-in-the-cjs.pdf

 

[Abertawe]

So what they're going to manipulate the end result but do nothing to fix the cause. Don't see what EG said to be wrong tbh. This is hardly helping the cause of ethnic minorities.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Ebeneezer Goode being ignorant and racist again?

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

The criminal justice system is institutionally racist. Stuff like joint enterprise, stop and search, PSPOs etc have been criminalising black kids forever.

This move doesn't address the criminal justice system's failings, but it is at least a start.

 

[NorfolkWomble]

The criminal justice system is institutionally racist. Stuff like joint enterprise, stop and search, PSPOs etc have been criminalising black kids forever.

This move doesn't address the criminal justice system's failings, but it is at least a start.

as well as white kids and kids of every ethnicity and background. Sure, there is an disparity between the population and the numbers in the criminal justice system but the main cause isn't the racism inherent in the criminal justice system, its the fact that if you grow up poor you are far more likely to be involved in crime, and if you grow up as an ethnic minority you are far more likely to be poor.

 

[Jockney]

as well as white kids and kids of every ethnicity and background. Sure, there is an disparity between the population and the numbers in the criminal justice system but the main cause isn't the racism inherent in the criminal justice system, its the fact that if you grow up poor you are far more likely to be involved in crime, and if you grow up as an ethnic minority you are far more likely to be poor.

If you are an African-Caribbean man you are 16% more likely to be remanded in custody than if you are white; you are also likely to obtain a custodial sentence of 24 months compared to your white counterpart’s 17 months. This is not because African-Caribbean men commit more serious offences than their white counterparts – these are punishments handed down for the same or similar offences. African-Caribbean men are also subject to receiving immediate custodial sentences with fewer previous convictions than their white counterparts.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

There's nothing inherently racist about joint enterprise, stop and search or protection orders, only the people who enforce them. This affirmative action mentality stems from the fundamental misunderstanding that racial inequality in the West is caused by power structures, and not culture. The architecture of the justice system itself is actually remarkably egalitarian, and where it isn't it invariably discriminates in favour of minorities, not against them. The problem is not that the system is broken, the problem - if there definitely is one - is that the people in positions of power are not the impartial actors that they should be. As far as these people's prejudices (conscious or other wise) go, I have no idea how this change could possibly help matters.

 

[TheMinsterman]

The criminal justice system is institutionally racist. Stuff like joint enterprise, stop and search, PSPOs etc have been criminalising black kids forever.

This move doesn't address the criminal justice system's failings, but it is at least a start.

It's institutionally sexist as well, strange they don't seem too eager to address that?

 

[smat]

the problem - if there definitely is one

very sensible, let's keep an open mind, maybe everything is completely fine

 

[Abertawe]

very sensible, let's keep an open mind, maybe everything is completely fine

You offer nothing.

 

[smat]

thids is vile abuse

 

[Alty]

It's institutionally sexist as well, strange they don't seem too eager to address that?

What is the answer to this? Genuine question. I haven't heard a proper rebuttal.

 

[Alty]

There's nothing inherently racist about joint enterprise, stop and search or protection orders, only the people who enforce them. This affirmative action mentality stems from the fundamental misunderstanding that racial inequality in the West is caused by power structures, and not culture. The architecture of the justice system itself is actually remarkably egalitarian, and where it isn't it invariably discriminates in favour of minorities, not against them. The problem is not that the system is broken, the problem - if there definitely is one - is that the people in positions of power are not the impartial actors that they should be. As far as these people's prejudices (conscious or other wise) go, I have no idea how this change could possibly help matters.

I'm vaguely symapthetic to your point here but isn't your last line the telling one? If we don't know how to alter the perceptions of those in power (and it's my own view that we all hold prejudices including on race - you, me, Ian_Wrexham, Jockney...everyone), then isn't making structural changes a way (albeit convoluted and imperfect) of redressing the balance?

 

[sl1k]

Really don't see what there is to take issue with in the proposals.

I would say the justice system structurally is egalitarian at heart, but:

" While national statistics show that ethnic minorities account for approximately 14% of the UK's population, the Youth Justice Board says a quarter of all young people arrested in the year to March 2016 were from these backgrounds - some 21,900 people."

is symptomatic of problems WITHIN IT - the people (and their prejudices) operate within that framework end of the day, so I don't think it'd be conducive to finding solutions if we seperate the two as entities. They're ultimately two cogs in one machine.

I also don't think adapting the structure to meet the unique needs created by the nature of human beings (to make it more functional!!) has to be seen as an attack/critique on/of anything. Its beside the point.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

What is the answer to this? Genuine question. I haven't heard a proper rebuttal.

It's hard to compare and there's a dearth of high-quality research - particularly in the UK. There are certain crimes for which women tend to receive vastly higher sentences - sexual offences, child abuse and murder, for example. This is likely because these are crimes disproportionately committed by men - when a woman commits child abuse it's treated as even more abhorrent because of expectations about how women should behave.

In certain areas, though, women benefit from leniency in the criminal justice system. Mothers are generally spared prison where possible if they have young children - even if the father lives at home (that's even in sentencing guidelines). It's important to note though that racial biases are far more pronounced in the sentencing of women than of men, though - they are 2.3 times more likely to receive a custodial sentence than white women. If you're a black woman in the UK criminal justice system, your femininity doesn't count for an awful much.

Try this as a starting point:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/...ale-offenders-to-the-same-standards-as-women/

 

[Alty]

It's hard to compare and there's a dearth of high-quality research - particularly in the UK. There are certain crimes for which women tend to receive vastly higher sentences - sexual offences, child abuse and murder, for example. This is likely because these are crimes disproportionately committed by men - when a woman commits child abuse it's treated as even more abhorrent because of expectations about how women should behave.

In certain areas, though, women benefit from leniency in the criminal justice system. Mothers are generally spared prison where possible if they have young children - even if the father lives at home (that's even in sentencing guidelines). It's important to note though that racial biases are far more pronounced in the sentencing of women than of men, though - they are 2.3 times more likely to receive a custodial sentence than white women. If you're a black woman in the UK criminal justice system, your femininity doesn't count for an awful much.

Try this as a starting point:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/...ale-offenders-to-the-same-standards-as-women/

Ta. Will read shortly.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I'm vaguely symapthetic to your point here but isn't your last line the telling one? If we don't know how to alter the perceptions of those in power (and it's my own view that we all hold prejudices including on race - you, me, Ian_Wrexham, Jockney...everyone), then isn't making structural changes a way (albeit convoluted and imperfect) of redressing the balance?

No, because you're not addressing a problem you're addressing a symptom. An over-representation of any given demographic is not an issue, that's fine, the problem isn't in the representation it's in the reasons behind it. The criminal justice system doesn't prosecute demographics, it prosecutes individuals, so all you're doing is adding a new dimension of discrimination and a new way for even more people to fall victim to it.

You counter discrimination with education, not more discrimination. We've gone through huge social changes in living memory, but it still took decades to get here, and it'll naturally take decades more too. The last thing we want to do is jeopardise that by reinforcing differences between people on racial grounds and recreate the racial politics of the USA.

 

[Alty]

No, because you're not addressing a problem you're addressing a symptom. An over-representation of any given demographic is not an issue, that's fine, the problem isn't in the representation it's in the reasons behind it. The criminal justice system doesn't prosecute demographics, it prosecutes individuals, so all you're doing is adding a new dimension of discrimination and a new way for even more people to fall victim to it.

You counter discrimination with education, not more discrimination. We've gone through huge social changes in living memory, but it still took decades to get here, and it'll naturally take decades more too. The last thing we want to do is jeopardise that by reinforcing differences between people on racial grounds and recreate the racial politics of the USA.

So those negatively impacted by (often subtle and/or unconscious) bias in the here and now just have to lump it while we slowly move towards our post-race world?

Maybe the answer is "yes, unfortunately". I certainly see where you're coming from. Doesn't sit very comfortably, though.

 

[Abertawe]

Potential to get interesting

http://news.sky.com/story/expenses-...rty-officials-covering-own-backsides-10801909