Attacks in Paris + Belgium

[Womble98]

Will have to be in the morning, I've turned my laptop off and gone to bed

 

[silkyman]

Prove to me that the Quran States to kill infidels* in anything other than the context of war.

*infidels being the oppressors and aggressors against the prophet who was persecuted for preaching.

Isn't that a bit of a cop out? Surely yer average jihadist considers themselves to be at war anyway?

 

[sl1k]

The Quran is mostly a log of the life of the prophet and his struggles, in the verses that it speaks of engaging the enemy it is strictly in the context of combat against combatants. The Quran specifically States that to kill one innocent (regardless of his faith or political views) is like to kill all of humanity. Suicide is also prohibited. You have to partake in some serious mental gymnastics to arrive at the position of the modern day 'jihadi'.

There's a lot of shizzle that gets parroted about the supposed fundamentals of Islam and Islamic law, most of which aren't even present in the actual holy texts. Apostocy for example is mentioned several times in the Quran, and not in any verse does it speak of killing the apostate. The progress of Islamic thought and jurisprudence has stagnated admittedly due to poor education and the ultra conservative nature of Muslim countries where the old ways are the best ways. But with discussion and debate Muslims can change this, it'll ovvi take time.

 

[Womble98]

Prove to me that the Quran States to kill infidels* in anything other than the context of war.

*infidels being the oppressors and aggressors against the prophet who was persecuted for preaching.

• Quran (9:29) = "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

  In other words, wage war against infidels, and subjugate them.

• Quran (8:12) = "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

Pretty self-explanatory

• Quran (3:56) = "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Likewise

• Quran (9:30) = "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

It is Allah's will that they be destroyed.


As for apostates

They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

i.e. kill them.


There are passages in the Koran which endorse peace and freedom of thought, but that is because the Koran is an absolute muddle of theology. The Koran allows for a peaceful intepretation, but also a violent one, which is why IS are every bit as Islamic as others, they are waging the Jihad that Muhammed did.

Ultimately though, the text of the Koran is largely irrelevant, the religious teachings of Imams and scholars today are more relevant, and more concerning.

Isn't that a bit of a cop out? Surely yer average jihadist considers themselves to be at war anyway?

Yeh, it is, but there are plenty of Quranic passages which still argue for the murder of infidels outside war. Not quite sure what he means by his last sentence, that would seem to narrow it down even more.

 

[sl1k]

I'm no scholar but will respond after my coffee and getting the little'un fed.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 3m3 minutes ago
Man known as Faycel C who was arrested in Brussels, charged with terrorist murder, is released for lack of evidence

 

[sl1k]

Quran (9:29) = "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Is in reference to the impending Byzantine invasion after they began to mobilise troops.

Quran (8:12) = "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

The Makkah pagans (prophet's persecetors) that travelled to Madina with about a 1000 soldiers to attack the Muslim party of 300.

Quran (3:56) = "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.

Reference to rebuke of the people who disbelieved in Jesus. The actual verse is:


3:55 [Mention] when God said, “O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to God alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.
3:56 And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.”
3:57 But as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards, and God does not like the wrongdoers.

Quran (9:30) = "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

This is God rebuking those believing in that which is not true. I fail to see where it's telling Muslims to go out and murder.

They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper.

The next verse is...

4:90 Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

 

[Womble98]

Is in reference to the impending Byzantine invasion after they began to mobilise troops.



The Makkah pagans (prophet's persecetors) that travelled to Madina with about a 1000 soldiers to attack the Muslim party of 300.



Reference to God's wrath on the people who disbelieved in Jesus. The actual verse is:


3:55 [Mention] when God said, “O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to God alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.
3:56 And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.”
3:57 But as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards, and God does not like the wrongdoers.



This is God rebuking those believing in that which is not true. I fail to see where it's telling Muslims to go out and murder.



The next verse is...

4:90 Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

3:56 And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.”
3:57 But as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards, and God does not like the wrongdoers.

Still means the same thing. The difference between this and Bibilical passages is that Muhammad was a warlord, Jesus was not. Following the example of Muhammad means therefore to enact that punishment, right?
I don't understand the argument that you are making. You are saying that they are being commanded to kill the enemy not because they not Muslim but because they are the aggressors. Then why does the word "disbelievers" feature so many times? Why not "the Byzantines", like the Old Testament does? It sets the believers and the non-believers apart, deliberately, which is where I think groups like IS are able to find their justification.


And as I previously said, there are hundreds and hundreds of Islamic scholars whose writings now call for death sentences for apostates and non-believers. That is what matters. I think you are right in saying Islam needs a renaissance, but I can't see it happening.

 

[sl1k]

Still means the same thing. The difference between this and Bibilical passages is that Muhammad was a warlord, Jesus was not. Following the example of Muhammad means therefore to enact that punishment, right?
I don't understand the argument that you are making. You are saying that they are being commanded to kill the enemy not because they not Muslim but because they are the aggressors. Then why does the word "disbelievers" feature so many times? Why not "the Byzantines", like the Old Testament does? It sets the believers and the non-believers apart, deliberately, which is where I think groups like IS are able to find their justification.

We are by no means a pacifist people. When we're aggressed upon, it's the duty of every able bodied Muslim to fight. Nothing wrong with that.

The terms believers and disbelievers are used to simply describe the two opposing sides. When historical narrations are used to contextualise the text, this is obvious.

And as I previously said, there are hundreds and hundreds of Islamic scholars whose writings now call for death sentences for apostates and non-believers. That is what matters. I think you are right in saying Islam needs a renaissance, but I can't see it happening.

And there are hundreds that don't. Those that do are a problem that we must address which is what I was referring to in the last sentence of my post from earlier. Whether you see it happening or not is irrelevant, there are huge efforts being made in the Islamic world to make it possible
.

 

[spireite]

Are you saying that someone has 'aggressed' upon the entire Islam religion? sorry if I misunderstood

 

[Womble98]

We are by no means a pacifist people. When we're aggressed upon, it's the duty of every able bodied Muslim to fight. Nothing wrong with that.

The terms believers and disbelievers are used to simply describe the two opposing sides. When historical narrations are used to contextualise the text, this is obvious.



And there are hundreds that don't. Those that do are a problem that we must address which is what I was referring to in the last sentence of my post from earlier. Whether you see it happening or not is irrelevant, there are huge efforts being made in the Islamic world to make it possible
.

Could you let me know what some of these efforts are? All I see is countries going in an increasingly radical and fundamentalist direction.

 

[sl1k]

Are you saying that someone has 'aggressed' upon the entire Islam religion? sorry if I misunderstood

The supposed war on Islam narrative that extremist preachers use to radicalise and recruit is a fallacy. And even in a scenario where this were to be true, terrorism and the targetting of civvies has no justification.

MorDon I meant on the scholarly front as this is where it matters most in terms of the progress of Islamic thought. This is where any future concensus will take root from and trickle down to the average Muslim.

 

[spireite]

The supposed war on Islam narrative that extremist preachers use to radicalise and recruit is a fallacy. And even in a scenario where this were to be true, terrorism and the targetting of civvies has no justification.

MorDon I meant on the scholarly front as this is where it matters most in terms of the progress of Islamic thought. This is where any future concensus will take root from and trickle down to the average Muslim.

Is that really what they preach? And there's people who believe them? Where do they even find these guys?

 

[sl1k]

Is that really what they preach? And there's people who believe them? Where do they even find these guys?

Sounds crazy to us, right? But given the right conditions and a specific audience, there are people that eat it up.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

We are by no means a pacifist people. When we're aggressed upon, it's the duty of every able bodied Muslim to fight. Nothing wrong with that.

Of course there is. It's in large part the reason that Islam is such a blight on the world compared to other monotheistic religions. It's the reason that middle class professionals from suburban England go off to die in Syria, or worse, blow up innocent people at home in the name of global jihad. Whether that's the true meaning of the text, as if anyone is capable of divining that in the first place, is really neither here nor there. The net-effect of Islam on the West is clearly a negative one.

 

[sl1k]

Of course there is. It's in large part the reason that Islam is such a blight on the world compared to other monotheistic religions. It's the reason that middle class professionals from suburban England go off to die in Syria, or worse, blow up innocent people at home in the name of global jihad. Whether that's the true meaning of the text, as if anyone is capable of divining that in the first place, is really neither here nor there. The net-effect of Islam on the West is clearly a negative one.

It's not for any individual with a copy of the Quran to decide whether we are in a state of religious war or not. I'm not denying that it's a problematic symptom of the texts as there is no Caliphate and Islam doesn't have a central figure like the Pope to outright denounce those actions. But it needs to be remedied through education.

 

[silkyman]

We are by no means a pacifist people. When we're aggressed upon, it's the duty of every able bodied Muslim to fight. Nothing wrong with that.

As with everything when you are using ancient texts which have been transcribed retranscribed over hundreds or thousands of years, it's all down to the interpretation.

Apparently 'drawing a picture of the prophet' is an aggression worthy of being murdered. By some people's interpretations. As is, apparently, going to a concert, being at an airport or having parents who follow a different religion.

Could all be interpreted by someone, if they wanted to, as 'Meh. If you cross us we'll fight back'

 

[silkyman]

It's not for any individual with a copy of the Quran to decide whether we are in a state of religious war or not. I'm not denying that it's a problematic symptom of the texts as there is no Caliphate and Islam doesn't have a central figure like the Pope to outright denounce those actions. But it needs to be remedied through education.

Tell that to ISIS.

 

[silkyman]

Of course there is. It's in large part the reason that Islam is such a blight on the world compared to other monotheistic religions. It's the reason that middle class professionals from suburban England go off to die in Syria, or worse, blow up innocent people at home in the name of global jihad. Whether that's the true meaning of the text, as if anyone is capable of divining that in the first place, is really neither here nor there. The net-effect of Islam on the West is clearly a negative one.

Christianity had its go at using force to spread. So did, well, pretty much any of them. There are fundamentalists in every religion and in another universe it would be the likes of the Westboro Church who would be the worst transgressors.

Perhaps we just need to accept that every religion brings with it an inherent threat of potential violence at some point during its lifespan. The bible has stuff about killing non believers too. The Old Testament is a fucking horror show, so Judaism isn't off the hook.

All it would take is some motivated hate preachers and some gullible and willing congregation and they could be up and running.

 

[sl1k]

As with everything when you are using ancient texts which have been transcribed retranscribed over hundreds or thousands of years, it's all down to the interpretation.

Apparently 'drawing a picture of the prophet' is an aggression worthy of being murdered. By some people's interpretations. As is, apparently, going to a concert, being at an airport or having parents who follow a different religion.

Could all be interpreted by someone, if they wanted to, as 'Meh. If you cross us we'll fight back'

Well I don't know what the fuck they're reading let alone interpreting mate, but the acts of aggression exemplified in Quranic texts are of the military, persecution and oppression sort. A bit of a stretch imo to suggest that a person of a sound mind can equate it to murdering people for drawing pictures or following different religions.

 

[Womble98]

Well I don't know what the fuck they're reading let alone interpreting mate, but the acts of aggression exemplified in Quranic texts are of the military, persecution and oppression sort. A bit of a stretch imo to suggest that a person of a sound mind can equate it to murdering people for drawing pictures or following different religions.

Well unfortunately that stretch is made worldwide by hundreds of thousands of Muslims. http://www.dawn.com/news/1248261 just an example of it.

They (2000 protestors) including high profile political leaders are calling for the execution of a mentally ill Christian women who is accused of blasphemy, the recognition of Mumtaz Qadri, murderer and extremist, as a martyr, and the removal of all non-Muslims from political office.

 

[sl1k]

Unfortunate indeed.

Sadly the world is populated with all kinds of fanatics.

 

[Womble98]

Unfortunate indeed.

Sadly the world is populated with all kinds of fanatics.

Alright, plenty of fanatics in America, see Donald Trump, but there isn't a political credibility to a movement calling for the state sanctioning of religious murder.

 

[sl1k]

Alright, plenty of fanatics in America, see Donald Trump, but there isn't a political credibility to a movement calling for the state sanctioning of religious murder.

I think they and their supporters are as barmy as you do, mate.

There is a cultural problem in how religion is adopted throughout certain regions of the world, and this is true of all religions. Islam stands out because a significant portion of the billion+ Muslim world is ravaged with political instability, poverty and poor infrastructure which don't make for a good social progress recipe.

 

[Womble98]

I think they and their supporters are as barmy as you do, mate.

There is a cultural problem in how religion is adopted throughout certain regions of the world, and this is true of all religions. Islam stands out because a lot of the Muslim world is ravaged with political instability, poverty and poor infrastructure which aren't a recipe for social progress.

And Islam is holding them back because of its regressive and oppressive relationship with freedom of thought.

 

[sl1k]

And Islam is holding them back because of its regressive and oppressive relationship with freedom of thought.

If this were true Islam would never have experienced a golden age.

 

[Womble98]

If this were true Islam would never have experienced a golden age.

But that wasn't the modern Islam which is being funded massively and spread in madrassas from Pakistan to Western Europe.

 

[sl1k]

But that wasn't the modern Islam which is being funded massively and spread in madrassas from Pakistan to Western Europe.

I too take issue with that backwards 'brand' of Islam and like I said, this is to do with how people culturally interact with and adopt Islam rather than Islam itself.

It doesn't help that they tend to have strong financial backing of the likes of Saudi and those that export it.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

It's reported that the BBC have made a complaint to the Police regarding Glasgow Central Mosque and Polwarth Mosque in Edinburgh, due to internal documents the BBC was given allegedly showing the mosques held events and teachings pushing the rhetoric of a violent pro-Sunni / anti-Shia group in Pakistan, who have claimed responsibility for various attacks in Shia areas of Pakistan. The Documents allegedly show that, in the case of Polwarth Mosque in Edinburgh, financial support was also provided to the group.

In addition two senior individuals at the respective mosques have previously held office in the Pakistani political party the group is linked to.

Glasgow Central Mosque says it condemns terrorism of any kind.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35928089

 

[Alty]

It's reported that the BBC have made a complaint to the Police regarding Glasgow Central Mosque and Polwarth Mosque in Edinburgh, due to internal documents the BBC was given allegedly showing the mosques held events and teachings pushing the rhetoric of a violent pro-Sunni / anti-Shia group in Pakistan, who have claimed responsibility for various attacks in Shia areas of Pakistan. The Documents allegedly show that, in the case of Polwarth Mosque in Edinburgh, financial support was also provided to the group.

In addition two senior individuals at the respective mosques have previously held office in the Pakistani political party the group is linked to.

Glasgow Central Mosque says it condemns terrorism of any kind.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35928089

Good on those who've tried to raise the issue. Seems those with concerns have had to leak to the outside to actually get something done about it, which is disappointing.