European Union Referendum

[sl1k]

In what way will the situation be different (for the ferries) to the current situation with airlines ensuring that passengers have documents to travel and being financially penalised if they fail - with border controls in the UK as the backup?

Just saying when you share land borders on mainland europe, people dont necessarily need to jump on a plane to get in/move around innit?

 

[Bobbin']

Juncker has already intimated, that Scotland wouldn't exactly wind up in the back of the EU queue. That one's gonna be fast tracked.

This was before their first referendum and they voted to stay so what is the difference?

 

[Gashead]

I'm saying English, 'cause in ten years time, there's not gonna be either a Great Britain or a United Kingdom. Scotland has already called for a new vote on independency, and Northern Ireland doesn't want closed borders again towards the Republic of Ireland and will likely leave too. And if that ball first gets rolling, why would Wales want to stick around?

Alba gu bràth and tiocfaidh ár lá. And quelle tragédie, too. Congratulations, Vlad. You're brilliant at this, you little shit.

Wales voted to leave, so that wouldn't make sense. Republic of Ireland..... isn't part of the United Kingdom. A united Ireland will never happen in my opinion, so I'm not too concerned about Northern Ireland upping sticks. I'll answer the whole Scotland thing below.

You can shout about 'England', but I live in one of the many major cities which voted to Remain. But the vote has happened, that's democracy, and there's little point moaning about it. Have to make the best we can of it.

Serious question about possible second Scottish referendum.

Why would they now vote to leave the UK?

They voted to stay apart of the U.K. in 2014 whilst we were still part of the EU. They made it clear on Thursday they wish to remain in the EU. So why would they now vote to leave the UK when in their eyes it would leave them more vulnerable than they would have been in 2014 when they originally decided to stay?

Scotland's transition into an independent, EU country is a long road. From what I understand they need an operating central bank, with historical records, to show they're financially dependable. They need many other things, but this is the big one.

I agree if Scotland did go, I wouldn't blame them, but they'll be worse off and there's no guarantee they could get into the EU quickly. The currency union was a big problem last referendum too, and that wouldn't change.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Petition urging second EU referendum reaches 1m signatures | The Guardian

It might already be too late, lads.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

That's difficult to answer. First, "economic damage" is hard to quantify with any precision. Second, and more importantly, you're effectively asking me to put a price on government by democratic consent. That's like asking me to put a price on freedom of expression, or habeas corpus. Certain things are absolutely fundamental to liberty, and the ability to choose (and eventually remove) the people who govern and legislate on our behalf is one of them. I don't know if I can put a price on that, or would want to if I could.

In lieu of figures, then, let me try to answer another way. Do I think a short-to-medium term period of economic instability and decline is a price worth paying? Absolutely. Would I begin to doubt my decision if we fell back into recession? Absolutely not. Would me losing my job (assuming a post-Brexit economic downturn were the cause) make me regret my decision? I strongly suspect not. Sorry if you think this a rather fudgey answer, but it’s the best I can give. The most honest, anyway.

Democratic consent? Take me through what exactly it is.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

How the fuck did we end here? Is it just because the Russian federation wasn't somehow compensated for losing Stalin's war loot Eastern Europe to the EU project?

 

[Mr. Scruff]

Apologies if this is long, ranty and has already been covered here. It's taken me a good day to get my head around this awful result.

Anyway. It's a disaster.A more horrific decision you could not think of. It's a disaster for the rich who are going to lose fortunes in assets. It;s a disaster for the professional class who are going to lose lots of highly paid jobs. It's a disaster for the working class who are guarenteed to have even more right wing governments for the forseeable future who have lost prety much the one organisation that was protecting workers rights.

I honestly despair that working class people up and down the country decided that they were best served voting with the likes of Nigel Farage and Ruport Murdoch. These are the people that have done everything in their power to ensure the largest redistrubution of wealth to the rich in history. They have been hoodwinked into believing that their problems are down to immigration which is but one small piece of the puzzle.

But immigration it was that has meant that poor areas have voted this way. Firstly I want to say I can partly understand some of the anger. I get that skilled labourers are being forced at best work for reduced rates and at worst have totally lost there jobs. I understand that even finding a minimum wage job that barely covers basic needs is murder to get. I'll even accept it must be horrible to see foreign families pushed to the front of housing queus while your with your family or friends sofa. I'm totally on board with the fact that our political parties have let us down and that the electoral system is broke

What I will not accept is that voting against the EU was a legitimate rejection of all this. The main drivers of this austertity were rewarded with a majority in the last election. We rejected a voting sytem that could have protected us against this because we were essentially told that we were too stupid to tick more that one box (on reflection that might be true) . We are now gonna lose Scotland and be at the mercy of of southern led conservative governemnt possibly in coaltion with Ukip if their rise carries on. Who will continue to provatise the NHS and other social services, cut welfare and revel in the fact there is no more 'red tape' to make people work more for less holidays and other benefits. To those lefty's who vote thinking Britain is gonna be a mroe liberal fair place without the EU are living in a fanstasy land. You have basically helped the right win a huge victory and we will all pay for it
Final point on the working class is to point out those claiming that the leave vote wasn't racist are simply kidding themselves. Anybody who has spent any time in working class pubs or community's in the last ten years will know exactly what I'm talking about. They don't like foreigners and aren't afraid to tell you.

Just last week my dad told me a women came into his business and started absuing him for being foreign. When he told her to ge tout she started saying ' I can't understand you , you foreign c***' are you a paedophile?' I'm from a small wokring class town in the north west and it doesn't surprise me one bit. This isn't an exception to the rule.

The brexit vote was swelled by these kind of people. I've no doubt that the working class have been let down and have legitimate grievences but it's time for the left to accept that large part of these people quite simply aren't helping themselves. The're happy to drink all day, not willing to work whilst moaning about immigrants stealing their money. These aren't a few. there are probably millions of these people, my uncle is one of them. Quite simply as a society we need to tackle this problem head on before it gets worse.Immigraiton is not gonna stop even if these people were hoodwinked into thinking so. I don't know what these people will do a few years down the line when they realize the brexit hasn't changed things for them. Them in coalition with the conservative class in southern England is a scary thought, but thats whats coming.

Another point to make is the age voting patterns.
I just want to share my utter revulsion of the baby boomer generation. The most fortunate generation in human history. They had it all. Free higher education, good jobs that could support a family, affordable housing., a social security net. There continuing selfishness has once again fucked us all. Now we cant have houses or good jobs, or nor can we look elsewhere .Well done.

On age, I think it's utterly disgusting 16 year olds werent allowed to vote. They are old enough to leave home, join the army , get a job and pay taxes but not get a say in a decision that will significantly impact their lives. Why was thier voice less valid than people who wont live to see the consequences of their actions.

I honestly cant see how we can go through with this without a second referndum.Obviously right now we need to negotionate for an out. but 4% of an electorate with 30% of people not voting, with flooding in the capital is not enough of a mandate for such a catastrophic change, We need to see where the land lays and vote again this time including 16 year olds possibly making voting mandatory. If the economy levels out as leave tell us it will and things look ok im sure they will have no problem getting a majoirty again. If as I suspect it will be a disasterous two years we can consider again.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I gave up reading that. It was a struggle to be honest.

 

[mente captus]

as a german i dont give a fuck about the economic damage we will recover faster than all other nations together.

what really annoys me is the political statement.

why are you so afraid of foreign people? when a person, who cant speak your language and were born without having half the chances you had as you were born can steal your job than is something wrong with you and not with the foreigner.

i really love how we have changed as a nation. we take care of the planet and the people who are living on as good as we can.

the best friends of my 4 years old daughter are all of foreign descent but i couldnt tell you from which as it doesnt matter. they are friends and thats all that matters.

 

[Gladders]

@C&B
Read the last paragraph and it was more bollocks about wanting a second vote. If remain won with 52% they wouldn't be asking for a second vote.

 

[Bobbin']

Yeah, it was a lot of waffle to be honest.

Basically, we're all fucked (we're not) and to keep having a referendum until he gets the result he wants.

 

[Destruction]

I gave up reading that. It was a struggle to be honest.

It was pretty shouty as is classic Scruff but his heart is in the right place.

 

[Jockney]

I've no doubt that the working class have been let down and have legitimate grievences but it's time for the left to accept that large part of these people quite simply aren't helping themselves. The're happy to drink all day, not willing to work whilst moaning about immigrants stealing their money. These aren't a few. there are probably millions of these people, my uncle is one of them. Quite simply as a society we need to tackle this problem head on before it gets worse.Immigraiton is not gonna stop even if these people were hoodwinked into thinking so. I don't know what these people will do a few years down the line when they realize the brexit hasn't changed things for them. Them in coalition with the conservative class in southern England is a scary thought, but thats whats coming.

I agree with a lot of the rest of your argument, but that you yourself have internalised insidious narratives about the 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor, in a diatribe that otherwise attacks the hegemony, shows that as a country we are a long way off being ready to make considered political decisions that benefit the most in need.

 

[Etienne Vermeer]

as a german i dont give a fuck about the economic damage we will recover faster than all other nations together.

what really annoys me is the political statement.

why are you so afraid of foreign people? when a person, who cant speak your language and were born without having half the chances you had as you were born can steal your job than is something wrong with you and not with the foreigner.

i really love how we have changed as a nation. we take care of the planet and the people who are living on as good as we can.

the best friends of my 4 years old daughter are all of foreign descent but i couldnt tell you from which as it doesnt matter. they are friends and thats all that matters.

We have the same rhetoric over here. It's more convenient to blame Johnny Foreigner for your problems than actually doing something about them in Anglophone countries it seems.

 

[TheMinsterman]

as a german i dont give a fuck about the economic damage we will recover faster than all other nations together.

what really annoys me is the political statement.

why are you so afraid of foreign people? when a person, who cant speak your language and were born without having half the chances you had as you were born can steal your job than is something wrong with you and not with the foreigner.

i really love how we have changed as a nation. we take care of the planet and the people who are living on as good as we can.

the best friends of my 4 years old daughter are all of foreign descent but i couldnt tell you from which as it doesnt matter. they are friends and thats all that matters.

Here's the thing, neither side is entirely right imo. The side who blames immigrants fails to realise the reason "Johnny Foreigner" is getting these jobs is because corporations and businesses are being allowed to recruit low-skilled foreign labour ahead of Brits (by our government as far as I am aware, nothing in EU law states you MUST offer jobs to EU workers ahead of your own), but equally it's unfair to say "well you must be totally useless if they're getting hired ahead of you because again, businesses have been left unchecked by our government to favour cheap EU migrants which has understandably made people angry (albeit with misdirected rage, which the Brexiters have lapped up and exploited and whored out as much as possible).

 

[TheMinsterman]

We have the same rhetoric over here. It's more convenient to blame Johnny Foreigner for your problems than actually doing something about them in Anglophone countries it seems.

I'm firmly Remain but... that's unfair, blaming outsiders and finding scapegoats isn't a inherently (or more convenient) Anglophone issue, it's a human one. Every civilisation has invoked the spectre of "outsiders" to suit their own ends and misdirect people's anger.

 

[blade1889]

as a german i dont give a fuck about the economic damage we will recover faster than all other nations together.

what really annoys me is the political statement.

why are you so afraid of foreign people? when a person, who cant speak your language and were born without having half the chances you had as you were born can steal your job than is something wrong with you and not with the foreigner.

i really love how we have changed as a nation. we take care of the planet and the people who are living on as good as we can.

the best friends of my 4 years old daughter are all of foreign descent but i couldnt tell you from which as it doesnt matter. they are friends and thats all that matters.

I keep hearing that there's a growing anti-EU and anti-immigration movement in Germany. Is this not true based on what you're saying?

I often get strange looks when, for some reason, it comes up and I say something like "Humans are my least favourite species". But we really are. The one species that has the ability to look after the planet, with a brain strong enough to make informed decisions, to alter what happens air, sea or land yet the only one seemingly heel-bent on destroying it for ourselves and everyone else. It's probably a very hypocritical comment because I'm sure I have "I'm alright Jack" attitudes to some things but it really is maddening how we get given the option, a choice, and time and again make the wrong ones.

Sorry for the divergence...just had to get it out and your penultimate paragraph sent me off on one

 

[mente captus]

I keep hearing that there's a growing anti-EU and anti-immigration movement in Germany. Is this not true based on what you're saying?
(...)

there are unfortunaly morons everywhere but i think its still hip to make bad news about germany as we were the bad guys for a long time.

i am pretty sure of the guys who are registered here and were for more than one or two days in Germany they really enjoyed their stay and were positivly surprised how different the country is compared to the things they have seen on tv or learned at school

 

[CEngelbrecht]

I was close to buying this for my nephew for his birthday. Not going to now.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

I often get strange looks when, for some reason, it comes up and I say something like "Humans are my least favourite species". But we really are. The one species that has the ability to look after the planet, with a brain strong enough to make informed decisions, to alter what happens air, sea or land yet the only one seemingly heel-bent on destroying it for ourselves and everyone else. It's probably a very hypocritical comment because I'm sure I have "I'm alright Jack" attitudes to some things but it really is maddening how we get given the option, a choice, and time and again make the wrong ones.

You can start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonic_Males

 

[SALTIRE]

Wales voted to leave, so that wouldn't make sense. Republic of Ireland..... isn't part of the United Kingdom. A united Ireland will never happen in my opinion, so I'm not too concerned about Northern Ireland upping sticks. I'll answer the whole Scotland thing below.

You can shout about 'England', but I live in one of the many major cities which voted to Remain. But the vote has happened, that's democracy, and there's little point moaning about it. Have to make the best we can of it.



Scotland's transition into an independent, EU country is a long road. From what I understand they need an operating central bank, with historical records, to show they're financially dependable. They need many other things, but this is the big one.

I agree if Scotland did go, I wouldn't blame them, but they'll be worse off and there's no guarantee they could get into the EU quickly. The currency union was a big problem last referendum too, and that wouldn't change.

We'll just take the Bank Of England since we founded it anyway.

 

[Mr. Scruff]

Yeah, it was a lot of waffle to be honest.

Basically, we're all fucked (we're not) and to keep having a referendum until he gets the result he wants.

Thats bollocks. I just don't believe that such a small swing of the population is enough of a mandate for such a dramatic change. Would Ukip had packed up had it gone the other way. Of course not. Farage himself said a small victory for remain would not end the issue.

What I'm saying is hardly unprecedented, to change the constition in the U.S needs 3/4 of states to ratify. It's pretty simple logic really.

I agree with a lot of the rest of your argument, but that you yourself have internalised insidious narratives about the 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor, in a diatribe that otherwise attacks the hegemony, shows that as a country we are a long way off being ready to make considered political decisions that benefit the most in need.

I wasn't saying they were deserving. I dont know how to argue with you really. On an intellectual level I'm in agreement with you. I shouldnt be judging these people from the position I sit in. They are a product of their environment. I'm just so utterly frustrated with how they act both individually in person and en masse.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Somehow in all of this, Labour's voters inadvertently has gone from socialist to national socialist. Which, don't get me wrong, is gaining ground all over Europe, because we have to have this shit everytime people move. But I guess for some reason, I thought the English would have been above that.

"Son, you know where you find sympathy? You find that in the dictionary, between shit and syphilis."
- Herman Pheffer

 

[JaseTheVillain]

Ah, so now we're Nazis.

 

[JoeJoeJoeJoe]

https://twitter.com/TomMauchline

Corbyn being heckled in the street.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Ah, so now we're Nazis.

Yeah, that was my point, laddie. If not only inadvertently.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

as a german i dont give a fuck about the economic damage we will recover faster than all other nations together.

what really annoys me is the political statement.

why are you so afraid of foreign people? when a person, who cant speak your language and were born without having half the chances you had as you were born can steal your job than is something wrong with you and not with the foreigner.

Is this the narrative you're being fed in Germany?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Yeah, that was my point, laddie. If not only inadvertently.

No point pretending now lads, he onto us. We've been working with Putin all along. If you leave now you might escape the purge.

Godspeed.

 

[Abertawe]

https://twitter.com/TomMauchline

Corbyn being heckled in the street.

Posh plum pricks. They're about as Labour as Boris' left nut.

 

[JoeJoeJoeJoe]

Just wondering how the leave voters on here feel about the backtracking from people like Farage and Hannan?