Game of Thrones

[Ebeneezer Goode]

How? She had no choice in the matter. She was completely passive.

 

[SaddlerJonny]

How? She had no choice in the matter. She was completely passive.

Exactly, she had no choice, and yet she was strong and pragmatic throughout. She knew that was the best situation she was going to get.

Are you blaming her for NOT doing something about the rape? Fighting back and getting worse? I generally don't understand what you wanted her to do.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Spoiler

I'm not criticizing a fictional character, I'm criticizing the writing. This isn't a documentary, she isn't a real person, this is an art form. Whether you can rationalize that her actions were not necessarily that of a weak person is neither here nor there, the point is that if you're trying to communicate to the audience that a weak girl is growing into a strong woman you don't achieve that by showing her being bent over and raped while she cries out in pain. It's not conducive to her character arc, the manner in which it happened especially, and seems to have only been put in there either because it's part of the book storyline they cobbled this from, or because it's part of a Theon redemption story. Either way it steps on Sansa's growth, and just feels like a step backward.

And I would suggest that you're among the minority if what you took from that scene was that Sansa is "strong and pragmatic".

 

[BCFC Jordan]

Spoiler

Despite how bad I feel the fight scene was, it did have one of the best parts of the episode when Bronn went "Oh, for fucks sake".

Summed up my thoughts, to be honest.

 

[SaddlerJonny]

Spoiler

I'm not criticizing a fictional character, I'm criticizing the writing. This isn't a documentary, she isn't a real person, this is an art form. Whether you can rationalize that her actions were not necessarily that of a weak person is neither here nor there, the point is that if you're trying to communicate to the audience that a weak girl is growing into a strong woman you don't achieve that by showing her being bent over and raped while she cries out in pain. It's not conducive to her character arc, the manner in which it happened especially, and seems to have only been put in there either because it's part of the book storyline they cobbled this from, or because it's part of a Theon redemption story. Either way it steps on Sansa's growth, and just feels like a step backward.

And I would suggest that you're among the minority if what you took from that scene was that Sansa is "strong and pragmatic".

Spoiler

It steps on her growth? What growth? She was abused in Kings Landing, taken my Littlefinger, wore a black dress and now suddenly she is a master manipulator? She is now suddenly a strong woman? It's progression of a character and how she deals with things, I'm not trying to say that her being raped from a writing point of view is the next logical step, what I'm saying is that it makes sense from a character development point of view to have her face more problems. It's now about how she reacts to it to build her up as a strong character. From a writing point of view, it is conducive as it gradually builds her progression mentally. From a writing point of view, it cannot be a straight climb up to her becoming a strong woman, that's shitty and lazy writing. From a writing point of view, giving her a problem, having her face it and then later deal with it is so much more rewarding, natural and fluid to see her grow. Putting someone through problems to make them improve. It's simple writing and character development.

Am I saying that having her raped was a good decision? No, I'd rather she didn't. Am I saying it is good for her character? No, I'd rather see it done in a different way. But what I am saying is that this notion that her character development has taken a step backwards due to the writers having her be raped is completely illogical to me. She's faced a huge problem in dealing with Ramsay Snow, one that she has experience with before with sociopathic men. She sadly was raped by this man, but did it in a way that didn't worsen things for her, she understood the situation. Now we see how she responds, how she reacts, how she plays the game. From a writing standpoint, there isn't much wrong with this structure. It now remains to be seen next episode whether they writers have done this well and can build it to be gratifying and developmental, or whether they have made another horrible mistake like they did the Sand Snakes, Jaime and Cersei and Barristan..

Also if you don't believe then that her being raped wasn't strong or pragmatic? What do you think it was? Do you that is was weak for her to allow herself to be raped? I'm not saying you are, but there isn't much else to take it as.

Basically what I am trying to say is it is way to early to tell whether this a step forwards or backwards in her character arc, I say from here it is forwards, you say backwards. We can only really find out when it concludes.

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

Quite a lot of this season has had the whiff of above average fan fiction about it, but that sequence in the Water Gardens was way (way way way....) below average fan fiction acted out cos-play style. And I say that as a viewer with a more or less infinite appetite for Bronn-ery.

And that final scene was, as we say in the euphemism business, problematic. Specifically the interpolation of an unwilling (male) spectator, as... what? Audience surrogate? Dubious distancing device, Plato's cave stylee? They wanted to have their cake and eat it, I assume, to communicate the horror of the violation without showing it graphically. But it served to transpose the victimhood to Theon too, as if that were the greater crime. So far this season the writers and directors simply haven't had sufficient command of the material to be attempting sophisticated (and necessarily high wire) games involving spectatorship and gaze, and it showed.

I don't find the machinations of the Lannister/Tyrell beef remotely credible either.

They done gone fucked it all up or is this redeemable...?

 

[SaddlerJonny]

And that final scene was, as we say in the euphemism business, problematic. Specifically the interpolation of an unwilling (male) spectator, as... what? Audience surrogate? Dubious distancing device, Plato's cave stylee? They wanted to have their cake and eat it, I assume, to communicate the horror of the violation without showing it graphically. But it served to transpose the victimhood to Theon too, as if that were the greater crime. So far this season the writers and directors simply haven't had sufficient command of the material to be attempting sophisticated (and necessarily high wire) games involving spectatorship and gaze, and it showed.

Spoiler

They did it because it is the same in the books, except a lot worse for the woman (in that case it is Jeyne Pool). They do it for Theon's character development, as it takes and bridges his upcoming actions. They focused on him for two reasons: To show his characters disgust and the effect it will have on him. Secondly as showing a rape on screen fully is distasteful and not what anyone really wanted to see. The victimhood being transposed is all your own belief, the victim hood is shared between both Sansa and Theon, there isn't a limited amount of victimhood to provide, however much is needed is how much will be provided. It's not overly sophisticated, it's cut and dry.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

She didn't deal with the situation though JO, that's the problem. She was oblivious as to what a maniac Ramsey is and what happened removed all agency from her. It was a step back into the passive Sansa of King's Landing, not the more thoughtful Sansa that Littlefinger took under his wing. I'm not suggesting that her arc is somehow now ruined, but I don't think this scene serves it at all, and I'm not sure it was even meant to. It's like collateral damage, almost.

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

^^^

I'm not interested in what happens in the books. I'm judging the TV series on its own merits.

"Secondly", you've not rebutted what I said. Focussing on "his disgust and the effect it will have on him" ahead of Sansa is _precisely_ the mechanism by which victimhood is transposed. It reduces rapee to prop, object of (averted) gaze. Which is problematic at the best of times, but clearly so here since said object is one of the half a dozen or so most prominent characters in the show rather than some jeopardy cypher redshirt, and (cf. the other discussion) has been on an arc of increased agency and so on of late. Likewise, "showing a rape on screen fully is distasteful and not what anyone really wanted to see" is exactly what I mean by audience surrogate and having one's cake and eating it. Fucking obviously. Particularly in the context of a show which parades "distasteful" stuff with glee more or less every single week, including rape scenes.

Your penultimate sentence appears to be a product of Google Translate, so I'm not really sure how to respond, but I'm sensing that the kernel of it is a faux-verbose variation on "but, like, that's just your opinion, dude", in which case... K.

CUT AND DRY MATE.

 

[BCFC Jordan]

Everybody needs to take a step back and relax, this is Game of Thrones.

 

[Megaclyde]

Can we all just agree, that when all of this is over, Theon needs to go find himself a cock merchant

 

[SaddlerJonny]

Yeah, I apologise, I've been reading a lot of discussion boards and I've been getting steadily frustrated, which is silly in hindsight.

Could you imagine Tyrion's cock being sewed onto Theon's... bump? Or is is smooth and scarred there now?

 

[Mustard]

Spoiler

The bland snake scene was awful. Could they not have hired some proper stunt doubles to make the fight at least a bit convinving? Dorne needs more Areo and Doran rather than the little girls. Oberyn was such a cool character making it all the more disappointing.

Queen of Thorns is still one of my faves. Calling Cersei a tart, gold.

 

[ZianfrancoGoal]

you weren't convinced?

Spoiler

 

[Footballruinedmylife]

This series has been a bit meh. Nothing much has happened.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I was getting a bit bored of it last series but this one is tipping me over the edge.

 

[Cashis]

Really? Season 3 & 4 were both brill for me. This season has been... shit. The fight scenes are shocking, all the Dorne stuff is wank, the Sand Snakes are embarrassing... these last 4 episodes have a hell of a lot of making up to do.

Olenna was brill though and I hope Areo Hotah has a part to play.

As for the whole Sansa thing I think it would've been better to have her take the bull by the horns and actually have her enjoy the sex. Be a willing participant, try and take control or some shit.

 

[Smally]

I think it's almost universally agreed this has been the weakest season so far. It's been building up more the last couple of episodes, but I think on reflection they've gone about things badly. Hopefully they can turn it round

 

[silkyman]

Just catching up on this week's...

'The dwarf lives until we find a cock merchant'

You don't get lines like that anywhere else.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

“You have this storyline with Ramsay. Do you have one of your leading ladies—who is an incredibly talented actor who we’ve followed for five years and viewers love and adore—do it? Or do you bring in a new character to do it? To me, the question answers itself: You use the character the audience is invested in.”

Glad to see they thought it all through...

 

[RavenBish]

Watched it. Shite. The rape scene was a bit shock value for shock value's sake and quickly relegated Sansa back down to shrinking violet after they'd spent the whole series building her up to a level where she seems more able to 'play the game'. Rest of it was....eh. The Dorne fight scene was, as pointed out by the entire internet, very bad and well, just not a lot happened. I guess we're just twiddling our thumbs until episode 9 when Stannis' army finally get to Winterfell.

I think the problem is that they're trying to build Ramsey up to a Joffrey level villain but he's just the fucking kid of a bloke now against the Lannisters and probably about to get his tail whipped by Stannis and his sultry Dutch fire mistress, not the fucking King of the Seven Kingdoms. So, where's the real threat he poses? Guess that's the corner they're backed into now, he just has to do really shocking and brutal acts in his bedroom.

Tyrion? Dunno, he just gonna get inserted into Lil Leesi's dull AF plot now then? Only thing of real interest now on the show is Jon Snow waiting for the whitewalkers to come and Cersei's power struggle with Sexy Nat Dormer. The rest of it I kind of zone out when it comes on screen, even the Arya stuff which, I understand, is pretty cool in the books but she's spent weeks now in that same fucking concrete room - 'not ready' 'not ready' 'still not ready'....episode 10 'she is ready' *fade to black* 'SEE Y'ALL NEXT SEASON FOLKS'.

 

[Cashis]

Fair play to Littlefinger for teleporting to Kings Landing as well. Man of many talents.

 

[BCFC Jordan]

If Brienne kills Stannis I'm deleting it from my memory and never watching the show ever again.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

after sex selfie

Spoiler

 

[Pyeman]

Agree with a lot of what's been said.

I'm not sure what purpose the final scene served. To me it seemed bizarre to put Sansa in a situation where she came across as vulnerable when they've been working all series to show the audience she is no longer vulnerable and in need of protection. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising her character for appearing vulnerable during such a horrific ordeal, rather I'm criticising the writers for putting the character in that situation to begin with.

As for the series as a whole, I've been disappointed that my favourite characters/storylines have played only minor roles so far, whilst shit characters/storylines seem to dominate episodes. To a degree this is understandable as they stick loosely to the books, which go through a dry spell during this period of the story.

Spoiler

Hopefully the series can finish off strongly with the Battle of Winterfell and Cersei getting her comeuppance from the Sparrows. Wouldn't mind a bit more Queen Margery either.

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

Fair play to Littlefinger for teleporting to Kings Landing as well. Man of many talents.

The distortion of time and space in this show is usually good for a couple of HUH? moments per season innit. Some groups/couples spend literally an entire season travelling from one spot to another, their every step fraught with peril, whilst others pitch up half way across the world at a moment's notice. Stannis at the end of last season most notably. Not that I'd fancy figuring out how to keep all those narrative plates spinning, but still.

 

[Jockney]

what a load of auld cockwank.

 

[Mustard]

Spoiler

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...ho-says-shes-done-with-the-show-10265706.html

I wonder why she wasn't complaining when Theon was have his dick chopped off?

 

[Cashis]

bored of these morally outraged people. a lot worse has happened in the series to date.

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

goes both ways libtards