League 2 General Chat Thread

[gijsbert_bos]

Official - best team outside the Premiership in 2017.

https://experimental361.com/2017/12/31/2017-league-table/

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Too many teams are changing for changes sake at lower levels and are risking a complete nosedive down the league table. Hartlepool weren't great last season but Craig Hignett wouldn't have got them relegated, Dave Jones came in and their form ended up being so pathetic under him they went down. I don't know what Cheltenham and Stevenage fans are expecting? Their budgets probably correlate with their league positions. Cheltenham fans should know all about changing for changes sake too. Sacking Yates, a manager unfortunate to lose many of his key players to bigger clubs after two near misses at an unexpected promotion, led to a chain of events which culminated in Cheltenham's relegation.

Teams like Port Vale and Chesterfield needed to change their managers because they're bigger spenders in this division, they shouldn't have been where they were and they'd been relegated from the third tier the season previous. Barnet needed to get a good manager in because they've outspent a lot of the division (and are still in their natural habitat of the lower rungs of League Two) but ended up getting up a washed up football dinosaur from the 1990s who will more than likely relegate them if he isn't sacked. But Cheltenham and Stevenage are well clear of the relegation zone and are probably 6 more wins away from confirming another season of league football.

On the other end of the spectrum, we were guilty for many years of keeping a bad manager in a job for far too long, which included four successive relegation battles in the process, so it makes me laugh every time I see mid-table clubs with mid-table budgets claiming apathy and that their manager should be sacked. It's almost as if overachievement is expected by the fans, but overachievement is called so for that reason! For clubs like Cheltenham and Stevenage, making League One, which they have done so in the past before more and more lower league clubs became financially doped with money, is overachievement. Being mid-table in League Two is where they should be (and traditionalists would argue even that's overachievement on their part).

 

[Indian Dan]

Most clubs in L2 should have realistic aspirations of making the play offs. The difference between 90% of them is negligible cos the general standard is so poor.

This is where managers can make a difference

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Most clubs in L2 should have realistic aspirations of making the play offs. The difference between 90% of them is negligible cos the general standard is so poor.

This is where managers can make a difference

Aspirations are one thing and are healthy for all clubs to have, achievement is another. People get the two mixed up. You can't spend peanuts on non league players and have a right to expect a Top 7 finish in this division. You have a right to aspire to that position but it mustn't be expected like some sort of divine right. Especially when player turnover in the modern game is as frequent as it is and most clubs face annual rebuilds of half of their squads each year due to the 2 year contracts running out and the players jaunting off elsewhere for another payday, it's very hard for managers to build a settled squad at this level when finances are lacking and unrealistic fans are calling for their managers heads for a 13th placed finish in League Two.

Every club apart from Morecambe in this league (who let's face it are just happy to be at this level) target promotion or the playoffs each year but 23 doesn't go into 7 and, more often than not, it's those who don't spend as much who'll be left to scrap it out near the bottom or finish in mid-table mediocrity. Teams like Accrington are the anomaly rather than the rule.

 

[Baratheon]

Official - best team outside the Premiership in 2017.

https://experimental361.com/2017/12/31/2017-league-table/

I assume you aren't getting carried away with this stat as it obviously includes the non-league teams you played last season. Lies, damn-lies and statistics etc.

 

[Indian Dan]

Aspirations are one thing and are healthy for all clubs to have, achievement is another. People get the two mixed up. You can't spend peanuts on non league players and have a right to expect a Top 7 finish in this division. You have a right to aspire to that position but it mustn't be expected like some sort of divine right. Especially when player turnover in the modern game is as frequent as it is and most clubs face annual rebuilds of half of their squads each year due to the 2 year contracts running out and the players jaunting off elsewhere for another payday, it's very hard for managers to build a settled squad at this level when finances are lacking and unrealistic fans are calling for their managers heads for a 13th placed finish in League Two.

Every club apart from Morecambe in this league (who let's face it are just happy to be at this level) target promotion or the playoffs each year but 23 doesn't go into 7 and, more often than not, it's those who don't spend as much who'll be left to scrap it out near the bottom or finish in mid-table mediocrity. Teams like Accrington are the anomaly rather than the rule.

Yeah, but we, supposedly, have one of the biggest budgets in the league, yet are no better or worse than anyone else - Luton excepted. Most clubs will have a yearly rebuild. If they’ve done well but not got promoted, their better players will be off. If you’ve been average to poor you obviously need different players.

My main point is that because the standard is generally poor, virtually every club should expect to vie for the play offs and the manager can make the difference.

 

[cufc17]

That miss from Bennett yesterday is shocking, could've walked the ball into the net. The build up for Mansfield's opener was equally terrible, but so typical of us under Curle. I'd get rid of him if we get knocked out the cup this weekend.

 

[TimeyWimey]

Very frustrating season, this team is far more capable of achieving more than it's doing so now and hopefully we've learned from our mistakes of this Autumn and finish strongly now.

Spoiler but we won't. Wins against Grimsby, Crawley and Chesterfield are merely bare minimum needed to stay up. Which suits the club fine as bare minimum is perfect for them. We aren't playing a team around us every other week in January/February, without a real sustained improvement we could be in for a pounding and christ knows where come March.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Spoiler but we won't. Wins against Grimsby, Crawley and Chesterfield are merely bare minimum needed to stay up. Which suits the club fine as bare minimum is perfect for them. We aren't playing a team around us every other week in January/February, without a real sustained improvement we could be in for a pounding and christ knows where come March.

Winning every other game has been some improvement from win 1 lose 5 then win 1 lose 4 but I know what you mean. Transfer window is crucial for us and improved away performances need to begin soon too. Home form hasn't been too bad this season (even though it feels like it because we rarely draw games) but, with the exception of Notts County, all wins have been against bottom half teams.

We're a proper confidence team. We've started to get the second goal in games which lets us go on to win the game. However, we've often been punished by teams through a lack of clinical finishing on our part. We should've killed off Colchester, Lincoln and Forest Green in that run of 3 games where we took the lead only to lose. Our style of play genuinely represents how the game is going as well. We look a good side when we're winning football matches, passing the ball with confidence and looking to create further opportunities (which is in stark contrast to Dull Davis where bring an extra defender on and mess up the lead late on was his speciality) yet put the same 11 players in a 1-0 down situation and they're more often than not clueless at how to get back into the game and end up gifting possession to the opposition on the edge of their box after 10 sideways passes and 0 crosses to nowhere.

Get the right additions in and we'll be fine, squad needs width and proper fullbacks. However, we all know the club's outdated attitude towards fullbacks so we'll still continue to concede cheap goals on the counter. Wingers are always hit and miss at this level but I believe pace will make a difference to this side because running at defenders at this level causes mistakes for the opposition more often than not instead of passing sideways slowly and allowing them to reorganise thus causing our kids to just launch a weak cross straight onto the No. 5s head...

 

[thewwfc]

Wingers are always hit and miss at this level...

Mostly "miss", I find. The classic L2 winger is a nippy kid who's not that good at the actual "football" bit of football. Ones with a bit of nous and anything more than fancy tricks are like gold dust.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Mostly "miss", I find. The classic L2 winger is a nippy kid who's not that good at the actual "football" bit of football. Ones with a bit of nous and anything more than fancy tricks are like gold dust.

I think they usually come with the description of "all pace and no end product". The ones with the end product though usually end up making a decent living for themselves...

 

[Vanni]

I'm sure this is quite obvious and I don't really have to say it, but aren't L2 wingers just like L2 defenders and L2 midfielders after all? They're excellent in some games and very poor in others. Too inconsistent for playing in a higher league.

The real question is does a L2 player whoever he might be have more good days than bad ones? If he does, then he's good enough for this league.

 

[Conker]

You can get a consistent defender at this level relatively easy, and keep hold of him too.

The same is rare for a winger.

 

[gijsbert_bos]

I assume you aren't getting carried away with this stat as it obviously includes the non-league teams you played last season. Lies, damn-lies and statistics etc.

I'm expecting immediate promotion to the Premiership!

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Cambridge fans: Our RB Perry Ng has just received a 4 game ban for violent conduct after the incident with Jabo Ibehre on Saturday.

Now given your away end is so far away it might as well be in Saffron Walden, can any of you who were close to said incident enlighten me as to what on Earth happened? I don't even know why Ibehre was sent off myself in all honesty...

 

[Habbinalan]

Cambridge fans: Our RB Perry Ng has just received a 4 game ban for violent conduct after the incident with Jabo Ibehre on Saturday.

Now given your away end is so far away it might as well be in Saffron Walden, can any of you who were close to said incident enlighten me as to what on Earth happened? I don't even know why Ibehre was sent off myself in all honesty...

With thanks to El Goodo on our board -

"I happened to be looking in the right direction for Jabo's red. He was sent off correctly for raking his studs down the calf of the Crewe player.

What I really, really, really hope is shown by the fottage is what happened prior to that, which was the Crewe fullback standing on the back of Jabo's foot, and leaning over and saying something in his ear, to which Jabo reacted furiously. He pulled at the Crewe player's arm then chased him a few yards and dragged his studs down his leg.

I can't and don't want to speculate on what that was but I'll say this, as a 34-year-old who's been round the block and gets in a physical battle with his opposition every game but always comes out smiling and hand-shaking, Jabo getting angry in that way really makes me wonder what was said, to which there will of course have been no witnesses."

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

With thanks to El Goodo on our board -

"I happened to be looking in the right direction for Jabo's red. He was sent off correctly for raking his studs down the calf of the Crewe player.

What I really, really, really hope is shown by the fottage is what happened prior to that, which was the Crewe fullback standing on the back of Jabo's foot, and leaning over and saying something in his ear, to which Jabo reacted furiously. He pulled at the Crewe player's arm then chased him a few yards and dragged his studs down his leg.

I can't and don't want to speculate on what that was but I'll say this, as a 34-year-old who's been round the block and gets in a physical battle with his opposition every game but always comes out smiling and hand-shaking, Jabo getting angry in that way really makes me wonder what was said, to which there will of course have been no witnesses."

Many thanks for the clarification. I highly doubt the issue was racial though. Perry has a knack of winding up the opposition and is a very loose cannon. Usually our Academy lads are the biggest soft arse shrinking violets going but I've taken a shine to Perry because he's not one of the bottle despite his limitations to his ability. He got Elliott Bennett sent off at Blackburn last month because he kept getting under his skin to the point where Bennett stamped on him. I've lost count of the times the opposition fans have booed him this season too.

Would've been very interesting if Dario was still our manager though. If Carl Martin got exiled from the squad for 18 months for a series of daft tackles in a game against Grimsby which saw him stupidly sent off and Dario saying "Whatever ban he gets will be music to my ears!" then Christ knows what would've happened had he been our gaffer. Not only has he shown gamesmanship which Dario hated, he's also been sent off twice this season now which means any chance of Dario's coveted fair play award has gone down the shitter...

 

[Liam_SWFC]

That miss from Bennett yesterday is shocking, could've walked the ball into the net. The build up for Mansfield's opener was equally terrible, but so typical of us under Curle. I'd get rid of him if we get knocked out the cup this weekend.

He'll still be in a job at 5pm Saturday then.

 

[TimeyWimey]

l

Would've been very interesting if Dario was still our manager though. If Carl Martin got exiled from the squad for 18 months for a series of daft tackles in a game against Grimsby which saw him stupidly sent off and Dario saying "Whatever ban he gets will be music to my ears!" then Christ knows what would've happened had he been our gaffer. Not only has he shown gamesmanship which Dario hated, he's also been sent off twice this season now which means any chance of Dario's coveted fair play award has gone down the shitter...

Can only dream of Ng being exiled for 18 months.

 

[shoddycollins]

Curle realised playing us at football wouldn't work so he reverted to falling about like pansies.

The ref was poor all round

To be honest when you're playing against a Steve Evans side combined with a poor ref then unless you have awesome firepower, you've no choice but to 'fall about like pansies'. Evans' sideline antics are designed to get into the referees head. When him and Minime come bombing out of their technical area screaming and fulminating every time the referee makes a decision, even on those occasions where: a) the referee has already given the decision Mansfield's way, and b) it was totally uncontentious; it's because they want the referee to start to doubt whether he's being entirely fair towards Mansfield. It may seem ridiculous, but poorer referees will start to subconsciously react to Evans' constant shouting about how hard-done-by his team are, and soon Mansfield start getting suspect throw-ins, corners and free-kicks all over the place.

 

[shoddycollins]

I'm not among the Carlisle fans calling for Curle's head, I think he should get at least the rest of this season, and if I agree with our owners should they decide to give them that then that's one of the few things I will agree with them on. That said, I don't understand why his contract has to be discussed now, but apparently discussions in January is just how we always do it, surely Summer is the time to talk.

If Curle is sacked, who do you think our owners will appoint as his successor? Almost certainly Darren Edmondson, who with all due respect is more likely to be out of his depth at this level than a revelation.

We are where we are because of budget, with a little in the way of bad luck on the injury front and the usual geographic problems (other teams have injuries but not many missing two players of the quality of Kennedy and Adams for an entire year) not a lot Curle can do about that and a change of manager won't change anything in this regard. We are one of a number of teams going into this season with aspirations of promotion and getting promoted requires a lot more than simply having a good manager, it requires we get among the best players at this level and keep them fit.

Curle's signings have been largely better quality than I would have expected us to be able to get. Some like Devitt, Adams and Jones who other clubs would have wanted to sign are down to Curle's ability to sell the club. We can't ever expect to sign many players like this though, Curle can't just go into the transfer market with a shopping list of players proven to do well at this level and snap them up in the way that some of our rivals can. We're never going to sign a Danny Hylton, A Bayo or a Luke Berry. Even those where we can compete on wages, we have the additional problem of asking them to play for a remote club that means they only see their families on Sundays and Mondays, and most summers this is the reason for a number of the existing squad turning down new contracts as well as transfer targets going elsewhere.

Another group of players who have been good investments such as Wyke, Lambe, Hill and Jabo are down to the ability of the backroom team to identify players who have been undervalued, and who aren't sought after but who can be improved. Some of these players we can get on the cheap, others we still have to pay decent wages but there isn't much competition from other clubs, or they sign because Curle can assure them he sees potential in them that others who might be offering them contracts don't. They're all a risk because either their track record at this level doesn't suggest they'll shine; because they've been without a club and are at an age where there are question marks over their fitness; or because they've not much experience at this level. When you take a risk it's not guaranteed to come off, even if you're very shrewd you can still expect that some of these players, especially the unproven ones, will fail to make the step up. There was always a chance that Wyke would have flopped, but he didn't, there was a similar chance that Bennett would flop, and it appears to be happening.

Most of the other clubs chasing promotion have taken similar risks, only a few have the resources to make low-risk signings. So on this occasion due to combination of all these factors; budget, location, injury and risks, we've found ourselves with a lack of clinical finishers. Despite this we've still somehow managed to score among the most goals in the division, but it's clear we're being let down by the occasions where we just can't find the back of the net, and on occasions by defensive errors.

As for tactical nous, again it's a question of calculated risks. Not many of Curle's have come off this season but rather that than a manager who tries the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Managers' fortunes come and go, sometimes because they become stubborn when faced with criticism, sometimes it's the reverse as the pressure they're under forces them into taking greater risks because a season of consolidation is seen as almost as great a failure as relegation. At other times the division just doesn't suit the style of play they're good at, but that last one can change from season to season depending on what other managers do and what squads other managers are able to build. Some seasons teams that play it on the ground do well, other seasons more direct teams do well, it depends on what style of play is preferred by the managers of the best teams and what style of play suits the best players. Although some managers need to go either because completely break down in the face of pressure, they have terrible man-management skills or they really are just clueless, a lot of struggling managers at this level aren't necessarily bad managers and can be seen as both good and bad at various times. Paul Tisdale is a case in point, for every season he is given credit for an Exeter promotion push, you have one where he is mocked by Plymouth fans as 'agent Tisdale'. The common factor throughout his reign seems to be Exeter's lack of money.

For the most part, all sacking the manager mid-season achieves is a hit to the club's bank balance as they pay off the contracts of the old manager and his backroom staff, a brief upturn in fortunes (unless the new manager is Mark McGhee) and the need to spend more money over the following 12 months replacing players, some of them perfectly good, with ones that better suit the new manager's style. There is a chance of course that a new manager can adapt the existing squad perfectly well to his style and do even better than his predecessor but then we're back to unknown quantities and calculated risks and whether a club's situation is such that a risk is worth taking.

For us, a lot of our problems come from the boardroom and allowing them to replace the footballing side of the club, bring in new staff and essentially reset the clock will only exacerbate those problems as they are able to hide behind criticism of Curle, a potential brief upturn under a new boss and then the fact that we are in a transition period and the new boss is still making his stamp on the club.

 

[AdamStag]

To be honest when you're playing against a Steve Evans side combined with a poor ref then unless you have awesome firepower, you've no choice but to 'fall about like pansies'. Evans' sideline antics are designed to get into the referees head. When him and Minime come bombing out of their technical area screaming and fulminating every time the referee makes a decision, even on those occasions where: a) the referee has already given the decision Mansfield's way, and b) it was totally uncontentious; it's because they want the referee to start to doubt whether he's being entirely fair towards Mansfield. It may seem ridiculous, but poorer referees will start to subconsciously react to Evans' constant shouting about how hard-done-by his team are, and soon Mansfield start getting suspect throw-ins, corners and free-kicks all over the place.

I honestly think it evens itself out. His antics aren't the best, and sometimes he'd be better off just calming down and keeping quiet - like when he got into a spat with one of your midfielders, who was a good foot or so taller than him . Sometimes ref give decisions in spite of him - having seen him manage us for over a year, i've not seen any correlation to suggest we've had increased decisions our way.

That Darren Drysdale still had a chance to give a penalty to Carlisle that was quite clearly a dive and a subsequent yellow card suggests he wasn't favouring Mansfield during the game.

The ref let an awful lot go in the first half, and Angol for us and one of your midfielders could quite easily have seen red with a different ref.

 

[shoddycollins]

I honestly think it evens itself out. His antics aren't the best, and sometimes he'd be better off just calming down and keeping quiet - like when he got into a spat with one of your midfielders, who was a good foot or so taller than him . Sometimes ref give decisions in spite of him - having seen him manage us for over a year, i've not seen any correlation to suggest we've had increased decisions our way.

That Darren Drysdale still had a chance to give a penalty to Carlisle that was quite clearly a dive and a subsequent yellow card suggests he wasn't favouring Mansfield during the game.

The ref let an awful lot go in the first half, and Angol for us and one of your midfielders could quite easily have seen red with a different ref.

Well this was my logic behind Mansfield being awarded a corner after one of our defenders put it out behind the goal, and even then the whole Mansfield bench were up in arms and out of the technical area, what on earth were they complaining about if not to just keep pressure on the referee?

Drysdale is a known bad ref though.

 

[Trapdoor]

Paul Tisdale is a case in point, for every season he is given credit for an Exeter promotion push, you have one where he is mocked by Plymouth fans as 'agent Tisdale'. The common factor throughout his reign seems to be Exeter's lack of money.

We don't lack money, we merely have temporary cash flow problems.
We should be alright for the next few years thanks to player sales. Chelsea still need to cough up for Ampadu but the cheque will come eventually.

 

[shoddycollins]

We don't lack money, we merely have temporary cash flow problems.

Are cashflow problems not one of a variety of financial issues that could be described as a 'lack of money'? Don't count your grecians before they've hatched.

 

[GTFCfish]

He certainly is but he's still scored.

 

[Vanni]

I see Grimsby have reverted back to their goal shy selves. Just the one goal in 6 now.

 

[Vanni]

It worked!

edit - no it didn't it. Fuck Flashscore.

 

[GTFCfish]

Only 3100 there too on a Saturday, and we're lucky to only be 2 down too this is fucking awful.

 

[CTFCfan99]

Well not only have we won away from home, we've scored FOUR goals. In one half. Madness.