The Religion Thread

[Womble98]

Because many believe marriage is solely a religious institution and they oppose non-religious marriages as well. The Catholic Church's position on homosexuality for example is vastly different to that of the Muslim world.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Genuine question...is there a link to the actual questions asked?

http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/Mulims-full-suite-data-plus-topline.pdf

Because many believe marriage is solely a religious institution and they oppose non-religious marriages as well. The Catholic Church's position on homosexuality for example is vastly different to that of the Muslim world.

Is it? Colour me unconvinced.

 

[Womble98]

When was the last time a major Catholic leader called for gays to be executed?

'Homosexuals are not criminals,' says Ghanaian cardinal

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/03/04/cardinal-turkson-criticises-ugandas-anti-gay-law/

 

[blade1889]

http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/Mulims-full-suite-data-plus-topline.pdf



.

Cheers. Got up to age 130/600 then gave up

Its another questionnaire that looks at sympathetic V condemning so I'm not entirely sure its fantastic to use to assume that sympathetic = support is the same...which generally seems to be the pattern with these things.

Re the views on homosexuality: The questions I read weren't 'loaded' and are obviously nowhere near where they should be. However, it does show younger Muslims being more 'liberal' than older which is a pattern I'd expect to find in any group of people in the UK. It also shows that those born in the UK have more liberal views, as do those who feel a strong connection to the UK...so if I were to try and put a positive spin on it, yes more needs to be done and I'd assume that the views of the Muslims in this questionnaire are more unpalatable than many other groups in the UK BUT clearly these views are not rigid which would counter the argument that Muslims cant change ('cos the Quran says x/y/z') or integrate (even if it does only change 1-5% per generation).

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

I think it's worth noting that conducting polls of ethnic and religious minorities is a notoriously difficult task. Because pollsters have finite resources and are working with limited budgets certain compromises often have to be made. The poll in question (conducted by ICM for Channel 4) covered areas that were at least 20% Muslim, which covers about 51% of the overall British Muslim population (meaning that the remaining 49% of Muslims, inhabiting areas with a low concentration of Muslims, were not included in this poll). This is likely to mean that the results are somewhat skewed (it's probably picking up a disproportionate numbers of respondents from particular ethnic backgrounds living in areas of relative social deprivation). One would imagine that Muslims living in areas with a comparatively high Muslim population may be less well integrated and have more socially conservative views than those who live in areas where the inhabitants are overwhelmingly non-Muslim. I think it important to keep that caveat in mind, but that doesn't mean we ought to dismiss the poll. It ought to give us a good insight into the views of the British Muslim population that it is reaching.

Cheers. Got up to age 130/600 then gave up

Its another questionnaire that looks at sympathetic V condemning so I'm not entirely sure its fantastic to use to assume that sympathetic = support is the same...which generally seems to be the pattern with these things.

Re the views on homosexuality: The questions I read weren't 'loaded' and are obviously nowhere near where they should be. However, it does show younger Muslims being more 'liberal' than older which is a pattern I'd expect to find in any group of people in the UK. It also shows that those born in the UK have more liberal views, as do those who feel a strong connection to the UK...so if I were to try and put a positive spin on it, yes more needs to be done and I'd assume that the views of the Muslims in this questionnaire are more unpalatable than many other groups in the UK BUT clearly these views are not rigid which would counter the argument that Muslims cant change ('cos the Quran says x/y/z') or integrate (even if it does only change 1-5% per generation).

Yes, would largely agree with this conclusion.

The figures concerning homosexuality - as well as evidence of misogynistic and anti-semitic attitudes - are, I think, very worrying and ought not to be taken lightly (while not wholly surprising it remains extremely unnerving that 52% of those polled think that homosexuality ought not be legal). Having said that, it is a positive thing that younger Muslims and those born in this country seem to harbour rather more liberal views than older generations and it's probably also worth noting that attitudes can shift very rapidly (a survey of British Catholics is a case in point - whereas 30 years ago 74% thought homosexuality was morally wrong, 65% now think broadly the opposite). I suppose there's also a question as to how much these attitudes ought to concern us - after all, it's Christian, not Muslim groups, who have been the most vociferous and proactive in opposing gay equality in this country.

When was the last time a major Catholic leader called for gays to be executed?

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/03/04/cardinal-turkson-criticises-ugandas-anti-gay-law/

Well, that's very nice and all, but the Catholic Church still officially views homosexuality as being an "objective disorder"... "ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil" which, while not advocating execution, doesn't seem tremendously accepting. There are still plenty of Christian countries where to be an LGBT activist is to live in fear of your life (Uganda being a case in point).

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

But you have to wonder if it wasn't political suicide to admit it, if many of them wouldn't have harsher beliefs behind closed doors.

Why would you be against marriage equality if you didn't have a fundamental issue with homosexuality?

There needn't be a nefarious ulterior motive I don't think. There are a lot of people that struggle with the idea of essentially forcing religious institutions to not practise what they preach. From their point of view it would be like coercing a Jew or Muslim into serving pork. Personally I don't think marriage should have anything to do with government in the first place, and religious institutions should be able to discriminate only so long as their marriages services are a non-profit venture.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Religious institutions have never been forced to do anything so far as marriage is concerned so I think that's as bogus a point as MorDon's "they oppose non-religious marriages as well" (I've never seen any campaigning on this front).

 

[TheMinsterman]

Cheers. Got up to age 130/600 then gave up

Its another questionnaire that looks at sympathetic V condemning so I'm not entirely sure its fantastic to use to assume that sympathetic = support is the same...which generally seems to be the pattern with these things.

Re the views on homosexuality: The questions I read weren't 'loaded' and are obviously nowhere near where they should be. However, it does show younger Muslims being more 'liberal' than older which is a pattern I'd expect to find in any group of people in the UK. It also shows that those born in the UK have more liberal views, as do those who feel a strong connection to the UK...so if I were to try and put a positive spin on it, yes more needs to be done and I'd assume that the views of the Muslims in this questionnaire are more unpalatable than many other groups in the UK BUT clearly these views are not rigid which would counter the argument that Muslims cant change ('cos the Quran says x/y/z') or integrate (even if it does only change 1-5% per generation).

I'd agree with that, which is why, imo, it's vital that we work to make sure (especially young) Muslims feel welcome and part of our community, not pariahs.

 

[Womble98]

That is certainly true but when Muslims choose to isolate themselves and in many cases they do, what can we realistically do?

 

[TheMinsterman]

That is certainly true but when Muslims choose to isolate themselves and in many cases they do, what can we realistically do?

Ask why they are isolating themselves, it's not entirely down to negative press and constant distrust on our side, I appreciate that, both sides need to give.

 

[silkyman]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...us-sect-child-mortality-refusing-medical-help

Into the fucking sea.

 

[Womble98]

https://www.reddit.com/r/JihadInFoc...of_the_most_prominent_englishspeaking/d0ltn7t

I wonder how people will react to this: it is an IS supporter explaining the theology of IS's actions.

 

[Stevencc]

I found a picture of Silkyman...

 

[Tilbury]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-events-leading-to-mps-suspension-from-labour
Criticizing the apartheid state of Israel is not anti-Semitic.

Meanwhile..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ores-of-eu-built-palestinian-homes-in-bitter/
'Israel bulldozes scores of EU-built Palestinian homes in bitter dispute over control of West Bank'
"They’re building without authorisation, against the accepted rules, and there’s a clear attempt to create political realities there," said Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, earlier this year.
Is that some kind of sick fucking joke?

 

[SUTSS]

Naz Shah went a little further than criticising Israel though didn't she.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Ex-London Mayor Ken Livingstone suspended from Labour Party after defending MP accused of "anti-Semitic" comments.

 

[Aber gas]

Interesting article ( for me at least) about current anti- Semitic attitudes.

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/sam-...nti-semitism-problem?utm_source=vicetwitteruk

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The Rupa Huq train-wreck was funny. This is why people are going for populist candidates all over the place. Just grow some balls and say that it wasn't anti-Semitic instead of grovelling at Zionist's feet.

 

[Womble98]

Ken Livingstone was suspended for his comments that Hitler was a Zionist. He then spent some time inside a disabled toilet with journalists shouting questions into him.

Also, the comparison Naz Shah describing Israel as Nazis probably didn't help her.

 

[Womble98]

Naz Shah went a little further than criticising Israel though didn't she.

Declaring that the "Jews are rallying" on an online poll certainly is a problem.

 

[Womble98]

Recently an LGBT magazine editor was murdered in Bangladesh. Just go to this facebook page, for British Muslims, to see many of them celebrating his death. https://www.facebook.com/5Pillars-490858150969676/?fref=ts

nd what's more beautiful is that the disgusting virus was the only one! Good riddance. Thanking all those who uphold purity and good and shun evil and fight against it.

From Ali Ahmed in Oldham

He should not have been promoting unislamic behaviour in a Muslim country, he knew it would offend lots of people

Well, as George Carlin used to say when one has to deal with a death of a homosexual: "he was a fruit, but now he's a vegetable - at least he's still in the produce section"!

serves him right, such filth should not be tolerated

f**k the gays and the LGBT

Behave or you will be lashed

These posts are by and large by British Muslims.

 

[Alty]

Re Shah (and Livingstone) - I'm genuinely a bit unsure. On the face of it, the comments could be construed as anti-Zionist rather than anti-Semitic. What always worries me about these statements on Israel, though, is that the people making them often seem to have an astonishing lack of historical awareness and, quite often, you'll find the rhetoric slips from "Israelis" into "Jews" in the blink of an eye. As it did with Shah, seemingly. And does everyone remember Lib Dem David Ward a couple of years back? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23361380

Notable, I think, that both Shah and Ward have represented Bradford in Parliament. Albeit Shah made her comments before becoming an MP. A minority of Muslims are virulently anti-Semitic in a way that I don't think you find among other sections of British society. I suspect people like Shah and Ward get sucked into saying things that might be popular amongst certain groups locally that most other people would find offensive.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Recently an LGBT magazine editor was murdered in Bangladesh. Just go to this facebook page, for British Muslims, to see many of them celebrating his death. https://www.facebook.com/5Pillars-490858150969676/?fref=ts


From Ali Ahmed in Oldham










These posts are by and large by British Muslims.

so u saying that there are some dumb people online my word we must convene the un

 

[Blitzballer]

All religions suck. Main cause of all the problems in the world today

 

[Womble98]

so u saying that there are some dumb people online my word we must convene the un

No, I am saying Islam is regressive and Muslims who are in this country and moving to this country hold those regressive views and publicly espouse them. Is that not problematic?

 

[Womble98]

Pro-Palestine supporters on a march chanting a mix of "Heil Hitler" and "God is great".

 

[sl1k]

No, I am saying Islam is regressive

you can say it all you like but the content of the posts you litter the forum with (regarding Islam) do nothing to intellectually qualify your view. it does however reflect on you, bruvz.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

bruvz

(drops mic)

 

[Womble98]

you can say it all you like but the content of the posts you litter the forum with (regarding Islam) do nothing to intellectually qualify your view. it does however reflect on you, bruvz.

Yet you don't even post to intellectually qualify your view, you simply accuse me of being a racist/fascist whatever.

 

[Aber gas]

Where's he done that ?